The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Emergency Question: Riots in Cardiff

Welcome to this Plenary session. The first item this afternoon will be the emergency question that I have accepted under Standing Order 12.67. The question will be answered by the Minister for Social Justice, and is to be asked by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: What discussions is the Welsh Government having with South Wales Police regarding riots in Cardiff over the last 24 hours? (EQ0010)

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that question. This is a tragic incident. My thoughts are with all affected. While South Wales Police urgently investigate the circumstances, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further. I would call for calm and for people to support the police and other agencies involved in supporting the local community.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that response to the original question, and can I endorse the comments that you made about calm, and dealing with the facts that relate to this particularly tragic incident? And our thoughts and prayers are, obviously, with the family of the two individuals, as I understand it, who sadly have lost their lives in a road traffic accident.
There can be no excuse for the violence we witnessed last night on our tv screens and social media output, but what I would ask of the Welsh Government is: what assessment has been made by the Welsh Government, along with its partner agencies, of the strength of community cohesion in the area of Ely in Cardiff, and in particular the ability of those agencies to respond and work positively and proactively with the community to build the opportunities, install hope in communities, and ultimately make sure that residents in this part of Cardiff do not have to tolerate this level of lawlessness? And will you support me in wishing that the agencies of the law bring forward anyone they can identify, so that the full force of the law can be brought against them to make sure that there is no repetition of these scenes that we saw on our screens last night?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for that supplementary question. I was shocked and saddened, as I'm sure we all are today, to hear of the tragic death of two young people involved in a serious road traffic collision in the Ely area of Cardiff yesterday evening, and our thoughts are with the family and friends of the two young people involved.
But I would like to take the opportunity, along with the points that you've made, to thank all those services, and, indeed, the community itself—all those services involved, of health, police, the local authority, fire and rescue services—for the exemplary way they pulled together to handle the situation. And I think it is a reflection of the excellent community safety partnership work that's been done in that part of Cardiff, focusing on it last night. It enabled those services to work together so well in this fast-moving and tragic situation.
I do understand that South Wales Police have made arrests in connection with the disorder, and that more will follow, but, clearly, this is something where our thoughts are also with the community—such a warm and strong community. And I know, obviously, that the local authority, our colleagues and elected representatives, and the leader of the council, were all engaged in this. And I was listening to the phone-in with Jason Mohammed—of course, from the Ely area—who actually interviewed the RevJan Gould from the Church of the Resurrection. It's a strong community in Ely, and we must remember this as we look to follow up and hear, obviously, what has happened, what the circumstances were surrounding this tragic series of events.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for putting in this question, and thank you, Minister, for the response? As you mentioned, there is an ongoing investigation, but may I echo the comments made in terms of sharing our deepest, deepest sympathy with the families of the victims, and their friends, of course, and, as you say, the community? Because it is a community, a very strong community, and I know many people are devastated by what happened last night, and the subsequent violence as well. And people are terrified, saying that they are still worried that this could escalate further. And what I would want to ask is: what discussions have taken place to provide reassurance to those in the community that suffered last night—they were terrified in their homes—and, obviously, to deal with the tragic loss of two young people as well?
Can I ask also in terms of what seems to be that breakdown in community police relations as well, in terms of miscommunication? We've heard that there may have been miscommunication on social media that led to this. Well, there was absolutely no communication with me as one of the five Senedd Members for the area, to find out anything about what happened or to provide any reassuring messages, and I've still not received any messages. I think there is a role for us as Senedd Members to play in terms of community cohesion, and I would ask the Welsh Government to ensure that all elected Members receive that assurance from South Wales Police, so that we are able to support that message that you have rightly made in terms of peace for the community, but also support to rebuild.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan, and thank you for your words of support and sympathy to the families and to all of those who have been affected by this in the community of Ely. I just want to say that I've already met with the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales, Alun Michael, for an update on this incident, and the First Minister has also been briefed. South Wales Police are looking into exactly what happened, the circumstances surrounding this tragic series of events. And, I have to say, it was a fast-moving situation; I think we were only becoming aware, and I know that the local councillors and the police and all the agencies were working to address the situation, as it emerged. Again, I would want to thank those who responded so quickly and speedily to this. In fact, the violent disorder that took place did include attacks on the emergency services, damage to property, causing considerable fear, as you've said, within the community, which is completely unacceptable. So, can I again call for calm and for people to support the police and other services in the work that's being undertaken now? And, of course, in terms of communications, I'm pleased to be responding to this question this afternoon, and we will keep everyone briefed in terms of the ongoing investigation.

Thank you, Minister, for those responses and for taking the question.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The next item, therefore, will be our usual first item of questions to the First Minister. The first question is from Hefin David.

Cost of School Uniform

Hefin David AC: 1. Will the First Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support with the cost of school uniform for learners and their families? OQ59582

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government is clear that the cost of school uniform should not be a barrier to learning. Our updated uniform guidance requires schools to prioritise affordability. Funding of £13.6 million has been made available for the school essentials grant for 2023-24 to help reduce concerns around purchase of school uniform and equipment for lower income families.

Hefin David AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. All of those measures put in by the Welsh Government are very welcome. And in complement to that, in Lansbury Park in Caerphilly, Lisa Watkins runs the Caerphilly Uniform Exchange, whereby people can visit to exchange uniforms, to pick up uniforms, and, the most important thing to know, they're open to everyone—regardless of income, you are welcome to go along and use the Caerphilly Uniform Exchange. I'd like perhaps to invite the Minister for education, Jeremy Miles, to come and visit the Caerphilly Uniform Exchange and come and see what's happening. There are similar groups across Wales. Would the First Minister, therefore, as I welcome the Government's policy, also welcome the work that is being done by Lisa Watkins and the volunteers there in Lansbury Park?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Hefin David for that supplementary question, Llywydd, and begin, as I've done before, in thanking him for all the local efforts I know that he makes to promote the help that is available, both from the Welsh Government and also through the fantastic local community effort to which the Member referred? I read with great interest the personal history of Lisa Watkins—how, as a parent, and obliged for other reasons to move from place to place, she found having to replace school uniform every time her children were at a new school a real issue to deal with. And that personal experience motivated her to start up the community interest company that now trades as Caerphilly Uniform Exchange. And the fact that it focuses on recycling school uniforms, both for the cost involved and also because we know that, environmentally, it is far better to be able to reuse and recycle than to buy new each time, is a fantastic service that is being afforded to residents of Hefin David's constituency. As the Member said, Llywydd, these things are replicated elsewhere in other parts of Wales, but I'm sure there's a great deal that can be learned from these local initiatives to make sure that the cost of uniform is never an obstacle to children attending school.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, I would like to thank, first of all, my colleague Hefin David for asking this question, but we all just know—. I'm sure we can all appreciate how expensive school uniforms can be, placing a huge financial strain on many families. Anything the Welsh Government can do to help parents with the cost of school uniforms and other essentials, especially in this current climate, is very, very welcome. Back in 2018, the then education Minister suggested scrapping logos in a bid to cut costs. Fast forward five years, and we're still here having the same conversation. Please don't get me wrong, First Minister, as I do believe and sincerely feel that the school essentials grant plays a pivotal role in helping families, but I do feel we could also do more. The current education Minister recently stressed the need for cheaper school uniforms, and then published guidance meaning schools must take that into account when setting school uniform policies. But I do fear slightly, First Minister, that the education Minister maybe, just maybe, is kicking the can down the road when it comes to guidance. So, I feel like we need something a little bit more meaningful right now. First Minister, do you agree that now is the time for the Welsh Government to be taking a much more robust approach on this issue, so we can truly help families all across Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I don't think it can, for a moment, be an accurate accusation to suggest that the can is being kicked down the road, because that guidance has already been issued. Nobody is waiting for the guidance; the Minister has published the guidance. It is statutory guidance, it is a great deal stronger than any guidance to be found across the border or, indeed, in London, to take a random example, I'm reminded of by the Trefnydd. And the purpose of the statutory guidance is to make it obligatory for local authorities to respond to the messages that were received in the consultation exercise. The consultation exercise was clear that parents and, indeed, teachers still feel that a school uniform is a useful adjunct to an education, but they don't want it to be a barrier to education either. That is the balance that the statutory guidance faces, and the can is well down the road already.

Equality for Disabled People

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 2. What progress has the Government made in achieving equality for disabled people? OQ59581

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. Llywydd, the Welsh Government is committed to equality for disabled people and has set up the disability rights taskforce. It ensures that the voices of disabled people themselves are at the heart of policy and practice. Support for the work of the taskforce is highlighted in the co-operation agreement.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for the response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: In your last Senedd manifesto, your party committed to enshrining the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people, which utilises the social model of disability, into Welsh law. We are now in 2023 and, despite the establishment of the disability rights taskforce, we're still waiting for this to be enshrined into Welsh law. I gather there is no timetable for it being enshrined into Welsh law during this Senedd, making it look unlikely ahead of the next Senedd elections. First Minister, this matters because the damning 'Locked out' report of 2021 showed just how far we need to go to achieve equality for disabled people in Wales. It's not fair that the disabled employment rate in Wales is nearly half that of non-disabled people. Can you update the Senedd on work to address the inequality that exists for disabled people in this country, First Minister, and ensure that shortcomings identified in previous reports are not identified again in future reports? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those important questions, Llywydd. I agree strongly with what he has said about the need to go on addressing the barriers faced by disabled people. We know, from the work of the taskforce and hearing directly from disabled people themselves that they felt that the experience of the pandemic saw a reassertion of the medical model of disability over the social model, and that there is ground that now needs to be made up in making sure that the social model of disability, which was supported across the floor of the Senedd almost two decades ago, and has always been part of the way in which we think of the rights of disabled people, that we recapture that and put some new energy behind it in order to make up for the ground that they felt was lost. To give the Member just one example of that, and as a result of the work of the group, we are looking at the questions in which we explore the impact of disability in the different tests of public opinion that we conduct here in Wales—the different surveys that we commission. If you look at the questions that are asked about disability, members of the taskforce say to us that they are over-influenced by the medical model—they think of disability in that way. As a result, we are going to recast those questions in future, so that future survey questions align with the social model of disability in the way that we would want and the members of the taskforce advise us.
As to legislation, we are two years into a five-year term and, although the pressures on the legislative programme are very real, I will make a statement, as ever, Llywydd, before the end of the summer term, setting out proposals for legislation in the Senedd year to come.

Altaf Hussain AS: First Minister, sadly, Wales is still a long way from being equal. Disabled people still face barriers and challenges to do things that most of us take for granted. We still hear of incidents of wheelchair users being unable to travel by bus because there are people with prams and buggies using the service, or we hear the common complaint of wheelchair users unable to get on or off a train because they had not booked ahead, that is if they can even get to the platform. First Minister, it has been nearly 30 years since the introduction of the Disability Discrimination Act and almost 15 years since the introduction of the Equality Act, yet disabled people can't even get equal access to public transport. What urgent steps are you taking to guarantee disabled people having equality of access to public transport in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank the Member for that supplementary question, and it does indeed illustrate the strength of the social model, which focuses on the way in which society is organised and the social and institutional barriers that restrict disabled people's opportunities. Now, I think a great deal has been done and goes on being done in the field of public transport. The new electric buses that colleagues will see around Wales are designed to full disability standards. The new rolling stock that is being secured for railways here in Wales reflects the needs of contemporary Welsh society. Of course there is a legacy—there is a legacy of buses and of trains built in an earlier era when understanding of these issues was not what it is today. But our ambition is to make sure that as we are able to bring new facilities into operation, they will allow disabled people to have access to public transport and other services just as any other Welsh citizen would expect.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, I recently met with the Royal National Institute of Blind People Cymru, who have expressed some concern over what they see as a variation in the support available for children and young people with visual impairments across local authority areas. They also point to a geographic variation in the provision of habilitation services outside of education, which you will know focuses on essential everyday skills for living independently, such as mobility, communication and personal care. I know the Welsh Government is meeting with Guide Dogs Cymru on this, but will you commit the Welsh Government to doing all that it can to work with campaigners to find solutions so that children and young people with visual impairments can access the right support both inside and outside of school?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course, I agree with what Vikki Howells has said, Llywydd, and the Welsh Government will make sure that, across the range of our responsibilities, we respond to the important points she’s made this afternoon.
The disability rights taskforce has a dedicated group looking at the experiences of children and young people who live with disabilities, and I will make sure that the points that the Member has raised, and the work of the RNIB in this area, are drawn to the attention of that group, so that we can hear directly from young people themselves as to how we can assistin finding solutions to whatever challenges they face in being able to make the very best of their abilities and their opportunities.

Buffy Williams MS: First Minister, we know that some residents who apply for disabled parking bays are rejected due to not meeting the requirements, but too many residents in Rhondda are rejected disabled parking bays, not because they don't meet the criteria, but because there isn't enough money to provide more than 12 a year, RCT wide. These bays impact enormously on the quality of residents' lives. I totally understand just how tight budgets are at the moment, but would it be possible to explore the feasibility of providing local authorities ring-fenced funding for disabled parking bays and increasing the budget to ensure that more residents who qualify for them are granted them?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree with Buffy Williams about the importance of disabled parking and it being accessible to people, and the position she reports from RCT is indeed a vivid illustration of the pressures that local authority budgets—and the budgets of all public services in Wales—face 13 years into successive reductions by the UK Conservative Government. Truthfully, though, I'd have to say that the pressure from local authorities is always against further small specific grants for particular purposes. And the work that the Welsh Government is doing, led by our colleague Rebecca Evans, is instead to see if we can find more ways of reducing small grants so that local authorities have more scope to make the most flexible use they can of the funding that they get through the Welsh Government. So, while I do entirely agree about the importance of the issue, I'm not sure that another specific grant, parcelling up relatively small amounts of money, for which local authorities are bound by very specific conditions, often costly to administer—I'm not certain that that is the best answer to the dilemma that Buffy Williams has outlined this afternoon.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, will the Welsh Government commit to eliminating two-year waits within the Welsh NHS by the end of the year?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I've seen the letter that the Minister has sent directly to health boards. It asks them to do exactly that—to provide 99 per cent, is what the Minister is reminding me, because there will always be a small number of people for whom it is clinically not the right thing to proceed with an operation at the point that it was originally intended. So the 1 per cent is just there to make sure that that eventuality is covered. Otherwise, the letter to health boards is clear: we expect those long waits to be eliminated within the time frame that the leader of the opposition has identified.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm pleased, in one breath, to hear that, but mindful, obviously, that the original target for eliminating two-year waits within Wales was March of this year. It is important that we understand if this is a real target that the Welsh Government is aiming for, because I appreciate that numbers have come down via the hard work of the medical staff within hospitals the length and breadth of Wales, but they still represent three times the number of patients who are waiting 18 months in England, which has a population 18 times bigger than Wales. So, it is a big number. We need to offer hope to the nearly 32,000 people who are waiting two years. Will you be commissioning more capacity from the independent sector, or identifying more capacity within the NHS's own resources? And, if there is that additional capacity, can you give us some scale of what that capacity will bring to the situation over the coming months? Because where we don't want to be is, in December this year, looking at another number and another target that's been missed for those poor souls who've waited already for two years or more for that procedure within the Welsh NHS.

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, can I thank the leader of the opposition for what he said about the hard work of staff right across Wales? He's right: two-year waits have reduced by more than half since the target was first announced. Of course we wish that it had been possible to go even further and even faster. This month, activity in the Welsh NHS in terms of in-patient activity is back to 95 per cent of what it was before the pandemic, and out-patient activity is over 110 per cent of what it was in the month before the pandemic began. So, the health service is working as hard as it possibly can, but it is, at the same time as dealing with people who have been waiting for that length of time, dealing with the rise in emergency care and in the referrals that come into the system every day. The Minister is determined and has made it one of her very top priorities for the health service to reduce those two-year waits, to eliminate them in the way that we have discussed.
We use capacity outside of the Welsh NHS already, and it is, Llywydd, I think, sometimes part of the mistaken nature of the debate that there is somehow a separate, private sector that has complete capacity of its own. In fact, most of the people who work in the private sector work in the NHS. If they’re working in the private sector, they’re not working in the health service. This is not just extra people with completely extra capacity. But we do use it. The Minister has set money aside to increase capacity in the Welsh NHS. More people work in the Welsh NHS today than at any time in its history. But the restraint is often the fact that attracting people to work in those relatively small number of specialities where the longest waits are concentrated is a competition with other parts of the United Kingdom, where similar restraints are faced.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I fully appreciate that you are competing for resources with other parts of the NHS in other parts of the United Kingdom. I genuinely don’t believe that the Minister or anyone in this Chamber wants to see people wait two years or more. But the 32,000 people who are waiting here in Wales regrettably are still waiting two years or more, despite the target of March this year. I asked in my second question could you identify the specific capacity increases that we’d be likely to see in the coming months to address those 32,000 people who are sitting on a two-year wait at the moment. I would be grateful, in my third question, if you could enlighten us as to what capacity is going to be commissioned, or actually laid on, so that these 32,000 can have—that term I used—hope that they will get off the waiting list. We know it’s been achieved in other parts of the United Kingdom, but, as I said, that’s not much comfort to people here in Wales who have waited two years. So, in response, if you could give me an idea, in the coming months, as to what capacity is going to be put in place, and, importantly, what sanction the Welsh health Minister will impose on health boards that do not meet the Minister’s aspirations, I would be grateful, and I know a lot of the patients who are on those waiting lists would be extremely grateful.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I hope that it is a comfort to people who are still waiting to know that two-year waits have been reduced by over half in recent months. So, the system is working as hard as it can, and is succeeding in getting those long waits down. The Minister has retained £50 million centrally to increase capacity where that capacity is most needed, whether that is in diagnostic facilities or whether, as we debated on the floor of the Senedd recently, to support the development of a new surgical hub at the Princess—I’m going to get my members of the royal family mixed up here—the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, where, as we discussed, a new building has been found, funded with help from the Welsh Government, and where planned surgery will be able to take place in future, without the competition for beds from emergency care. So, that £50 million is there; it will support the efforts to accelerate the treatment of people who have been waiting too long, but it will also increase the capacity of the NHS more generally to deal with the increased volumes of demand that it is seeing not just in emergency care but in planned care as well.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and, at the outset, may I thank everyone for the kind messages that you've sent me, wishing me well in this interim role?

Llyr Gruffydd AC: First Minister, we’re all aware of your intention to step down from your role before the next Senedd election. Now, ordinarily, as a party leader, I’d be hoping to outlast you in these sessions, but, given the temporary nature of my role, clearly, that is unlikely to happen. But if it did, it’s either gone horribly wrong for you, or it’s gone horribly wrong for me. [Laughter.] That remains to be seen, I suppose.
But on a more serious note, it is becoming increasingly clear, isn't it, that the humiliating end to Trussonomics and the catastrophic consequences of a botched Brexit, along with, I have to say, the failure of both UK and Welsh Governments to get to grips with many of the challenges facing people in Wales today, are leaving many Welsh households on the brink. Figures published last week suggest that Wales saw the largest year-on-year increase in unemployment in the whole of the United Kingdom. In the past days, Ministers have been telling us that they delegate responsibility within their portfolios to highly paid executives. So, could you tell us, First Minister, to whom have Ministers delegated responsibility for unemployment in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, of course, I welcome Llyr Gruffydd to his new responsibilities. I'm perfectly willing to offer some mutual aid on the avoidance of disasters front.
In relation to his question, I'd suggest for him not to put too much reliance on one month's data in what is always a highly volatile sequence. The underlying figures for employment in the Welsh economy do not show the picture that he has described. Indeed, other sources of information in the same release—. If you look at the data on employees registered for pay-as-you-earn in that same series, it shows a more positive trend, with a larger percentage increase in Wales than the whole of the United Kingdom over the period since just before the pandemic started. So, actually, I think the more remarkable story about the Welsh economy is how resilient it has proved under the many stresses and strains that Llyr Gruffydd alluded to with employment levels. Despite the impact of interest rates and soaring energy prices, employment levels, I think, are showing resilience. Those same figures showed a reduction in economic inactivity in Wales, while it was going up across the rest of the United Kingdom. Of course there are things that we want to see done in the Welsh economy, particularly in improving skills and attracting highly paid jobs into Wales, but in terms of theunderlying pattern, given the pressures that there have been on the Welsh economy—from Brexit, from the failed experiment of the Truss premiership, and not just the Truss premiership either—I think the striking thing about it has been its resilience.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: There is no denying, First Minister, that one figure that causes great concern is the number of people in Wales who are absent from work because of long-term sickness. It's almost 160,000 people, the highest figure in 15 years. So I'm sure that is a cause for concern. A third of workers in the UK who aren't in work are trying to take proactive steps to rejoin the workforce, but many are having difficulties. One of the reasons, perhaps, is that it's difficult for them to explain or justify their long-term absence to prospective employers. The recent evaluation of the Working Wales programme—your Government's programme, which is trying to get more people back to work—suggests that there is low awareness among the public of that scheme. I would suggest, and you might accept, that that in itself is one barrier to people finding work. But given that evaluation, would you commit to an independent review of Government programmes that seek to tackle lack of economic activity?

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree, of course, in terms of long-term sickness absence. That's not just true of Wales but across the UK as well. It's a problem that has arisen more in the UK than in other European countries in the context of emerging from COVID. When you look into the figures, the biggest increase is among those who say that they are not ready to go back to work after mental health problems. The increase in mental health problems is more than the growth in people with physical problems. So we are working with the programmes that we have—for example Working Wales—to try and think about whether there are new measures that we can take to help people who want to return to the workforce but who at present face problems in terms of doing so. We always pursue the programmes that we fund here in Wales to see whether they are doing things in the most effective way, and we do that across the spectrum of programmes that we have. Of course, I'm willing to consider any ideas that Llyr Gruffydd has, but we already have a lot of evidence and I don't want to decelerate what we're doing at present by waiting for an independent review of what we're doing, when there are ideas that we already have that we can implement to help people.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The so-called UK insurance policy that you argue protects Wales, many of us would say isn’t paying out an economic dividend in this context at least, whether it’s employment, unemployment or regional pay disparities as well. Not all, of course, but many of the levers and the powers that can protect Wales in these regards lie in Westminster, and that’s why acquiring new powers for Wales isn’t some sort of constitutional indulgence; it’s about ensuring that policy makers here have the requisite tools needed to get to grips with and to challenge the historical economic weaknesses that we face here.
Devolving more economic powers to Wales; re-joining the EU single market; undertaking an independent review, as I suggested, of Working Wales; establishing Prosperity Wales, an economic development agency for the twenty-first century: these are some of Plaid Cymru’s constructive ideas—a 'For Wales' plan, we called it, for boosting job creation. Meanwhile, a first glimpse of Labour’s prospective manifesto for the UK general election makes only very vague references to devolution. So, First Minister, between now and that election, will you be pitching for Labour’s manifesto to include increased devolution of economic powers to Wales and re-joining the EU single market?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I’ve seen a brief version of Plaid Cymru’s plan and there are some things in there that I’m sure we would wish to think about and to see whether those ideas could be made useful. I don’t agree about a return to the Welsh Development Agency. I think that is a very backward-looking idea. As to the two issues that we haven’t talked about this afternoon, re-joining the single market is not a course of action available to Wales alone. We simply would not get any agreement from the European Union to doing so. It would have to be part of a much, much larger initiative that would include the whole of the United Kingdom.
As to new powers, I’m encouraged by the fact that the Gordon Brown report does recommend the transfer of economic powers to Wales. Responsibility for job centres is very much part of the answer to the first question that Llyr Gruffydd asked me this afternoon. And, of course, Keir Starmer has made a specific commitment that funds that previously came from the European Union, and which were taken away from Wales, and the power to use them taken away from Wales, both of those aspects will be returned to Wales under the next Labour Government. The money will come to Wales and the decision making will return to this Senedd where it always ought to have belonged. So, I am optimistic, on those very practical grounds, that a new Labour Government would indeed transfer the powers that we need, here in this Senedd, to play our part in making sure that the economy of Wales can grow, can grow in the way that we want it to grow, and that it is characterised by fair work, by sustainability and by the spread of prosperity to every part of our nation.

The Pupil Deprivation Grant

Mike Hedges AC: 3. Will the First Minister provide an update on the pupil deprivation grant? OQ59543

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that question. The grant has a key part to play in tackling the impact of poverty on attainment. Year on year, we have extended the grant to reflect the increase in learners eligible for free school meals, with £130 million allocated this year.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the First Minister for that response? I’m very pleased to see that free school meals are being expanded. I have, over several years, submitted written questions and spoken on the subject. But parents apply for free school meals, which also provides the uniform grant and pupil deprivation grant to the school. I’ve been contacted by headteachers in Swansea, concerned that parents are not applying for free school meals and the associated benefits—the meals are free anyway, so why should they apply? Free school meals were always an inexact proxy for need. Does the First Minister share my concern regarding free school meal applications? What plans does the Welsh Government have to solve this problem?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Mike Hedges for what he said about the extension of free school meals; 80,000 extra pupils are already newly eligible for universal free school meals, and nearly 5 million additional meals have already been served since the policy began in September of last year.
Now, I understand the point that the Member makes, of course, that, if parents feel that they’re going to get a free meal anyway, why register for free school meals? Well, we all have to work harder; the Welsh Government is already providing resources to local education authorities that they can use in schools and with parents to explain why collecting that information is still important. It’s a legal requirement, actually, of the system that that information is secured. And, it is important for parents because eligibility for free school meals still acts as a passport into many other forms of help, and for the school, because the school funding formula has a proxy, as Mike Hedges said, for social need, the number of young people in a school who are eligible for free school meals.
Now, many local authorities in Wales are addressing this issue by issuing a universal free-school-meal registration form, so it goes to every student, the parents of every young person coming into the school, all parents return it, the school is able to identify those young people who would have been eligible for free school meals; that information can be used with parents to make sure that they get the rest of the help they need, and it helps the school to make sure that it gets its fair share of the pupil deprivation grant. So, there is every interest for the school itself in making sure that those returns are secured.
I was heartened, Llywydd, to see recent correspondence between the National Association of Head Teachers in Wales and the head of the Minister’s department committing headteachers to do everything they could alongside us to make sure that young people who are entitled to free school meals are identified, and that the benefits that flow from that continue to flow to them and to the school.

Gareth Davies AS: I’m pleased this question has been raised by Mike Hedges this afternoon. A key conduit, of course, to achieving free school meals and maximising the pupil deprivation grant, of course, is access to modern learning facilities and ideally, twenty-first century schools. In my constituency in the Vale of Clwyd, we’ve seen fantastic new facilities in the building of Rhyl High School, Christ the Word Catholic School, and of course, the Welsh-medium school, Ysgol Glan Clwyd in St Asaph.
But, on Friday, I had the pleasure of visiting Denbigh High School and have an hour’s Q&A with some of the years 7 and 8, and together with Prestatyn High School, they’re begging out, and they have been for many years now, for twenty-first century schools funding because some of their facilities—classrooms, laboratories, and some of the communal areas—date back to the 1950s, and some of the areas just aren’t fit for modern use. So, could you perhaps provide an update this afternoon to what discussions you’ve had with the Minister for education, and, indeed, with Denbighshire County Council and the schools to ensure that all schools in Denbighshire are fit for the twenty-first century?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I’ll do my best to help the Member. I’m struggling to see the connection between that question and the pupil deprivation grant, which was the subject of the question on the order paper. But, if you’re happy for me to take a wholly unrelated supplementary, then I’m happy to assure the Member that the Minister has changed the basis of the twenty-first century schools programme so that it no longer proceeds by separate bands, but is a continuous programme in which local authorities are able to identify their top priorities for further investment, and so more children in every part of Wales are able to benefit from the fantastic benefits of that programme, and that will be true of Denbighshire, with the excellent examples to which the Member referred, as it would be for any other part of Wales.

Social Mobility

John Griffiths AC: 4. What is the Welsh Government's latest assessment of the effectiveness of the education system in enabling social mobility in Wales? OQ59563

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the life chances of children are affected by many factors beyond the school gate, and are often laid down before education even begins. Enormous efforts are made by teachers and the education system to compensate for those wider factors in the lives of those young people who need that help the most.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister, which I very much agree with. Education is a powerful agent of social change, social mobility, life chances and quality of life, and, at a recent meeting I had with a secondary school headteacher, concerns were raised regarding white working-class boys in the school not fulfilling their potential. The head felt that more needs to be done to understand and address the underperformance of these particular pupils. First Minister, social class remains a key determinant of life chances and cuts across all sections of society, so what more might Welsh Government do to tackle these crucial social class issues, including improving the educational experience of white working-class boys in our schools?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I understand the point that the Member is making. When he refers to white working-class boys and their performance within the education system, there are, it seems to me, three separate factors summed up in just those few words. My own view is that the most fundamental of those factors is the class factor, the fact that those are young people who come from homes where families have to deal with the consequence of poverty in their lives, where experiences that other families are able to take for granted may not be available to those young people. And helping, through the education system, to compensate for those factors, I think, is, as the Member said, Llywydd, a powerful agent that schools can play for change.
The second of the three factors that the Member mentioned is gender. These are boys, and we know that, right through the system, young women outperform young men in our education system, right up to A-levels, if not beyond. And a lot of work is going on to try to make sure that we purpose our education system in a way that makes it attractive to those young men, it appeals to the things that appeal to them. The foundation phase is surely the most powerful thing we have in early years education to make sure that young boys feel that learning is something that matters to them.
And then the third factor in white working-class boys is ethnicity, and I think that is the weakest explanatory variable. Those young men are not doing as well as we would like them to do not because they are white. So, yes, those things come together, and it's important to treat them as the inter-related characteristics that they represent, but I think class is the most important and the most powerful variable. The fact that young men don't do as well as we would like them to do is the second.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Firstly, I'd like to concur with everything that the Member for Newport East just said. It is absolutely crucial we get to grips with that. Social mobility is crucial in improving livelihoods across Wales, and, as the Government, you should be doing everything in your power to ensure that young people get the best opportunities and access to higher education. At the very least, young people in Wales should have an equal playing field to their UK counterparts. However, the Government appear to want to make this harder than ever for our learners by pushing forward with a highly controversial move to just combine those double sciences at GCSE level, something that has been widely denounced. At a time when we're crying out for young people to take up science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects and jobs for the future, with the same breath you are putting them at immediate disadvantage to those in the rest of the UK when applying for jobs in universities across our porous borders. Do you not see that this is a damaging move and only going to hurt social mobility in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I don't, Llywydd; I don't agree with it. It is based on the advice that we get from Qualifications Wales, from the examining bodies. They are confident that the move does not damage the chances of young people, doesn't make a difference to the results that they will achieve at that level, or in their futures. The Member may know better than those who spend their lives working on these issues and providing advice. But the advice we have is the advice we have acted upon, and we've acted upon it because it is the result of the serious investigation and the careful policy advice that we get from those who are the experts in the field.

Water Quality in Welsh Rivers

Peter Fox AS: 5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of water quality in Welsh rivers? OQ59583

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Peter Fox, Llywydd, for that. Natural Resources Wales assesses 44 per cent of our rivers at either good or higher ecological status. The latest river basin management plans set out how we intend to improve water quality across Wales, working with our partners, and the Welsh Government provides a £40 million funding package to support those endeavours.

Peter Fox AS: Thanks for that answer, First Minister. The public outrage about the condition of our rivers across Wales understandably continues to grow, not helped by the recent revelations that 25 per cent of all hours of sewage discharges across the UK happen in Wales. The people want to see purposeful action to improve the situation here. Those actions require coherence between all actors and agencies to achieve sustainable results. First Minister, how do you propose to eliminate the hidden subsidy that nature pays for the life we all enjoy today? And are you convinced that Natural Resources Wales is capable as a regulator and appropriately resourcedto perform the role that citizens quite rightly expect?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me agree very much with Peter Fox said about the need to corral the contributions that all those who have a part to play can contribute to solving the problem of river pollution. We know that Welsh Water Dŵr Cymru have an important part to play in improving the services that they provide. We know that rural land use is often the single biggest contributor to river pollution, and we must capture a stronger contribution from the agriculture sector as well.
We have to deal with the history that we have here in Wales, Llywydd. There are 1,300 abandoned metal mines in Wales, many of which contribute to pollution in our rivers, and where the work that has been done by Welsh Government officials has attracted international interest in the success that we have achieved. The International Mine Water Association conference is coming to Wales this summer in order to see the work that is being done to address pollution from that historical legacy. Now, the summit that I co-chaired with my colleagues Lesley Griffiths and Julie James saw an effort to bring all those players around a single table, to commit them all to an action plan in which everybody asks themselves the question, ‘What more can I do to make a difference to this problem?’, not saying, ‘If only somebody else did something the position would be improved.’ I was encouraged at the second summit that many of the participants came with practical things to propose, and the job now is to make sure that those ideas are put to work as quickly as possible. We need to accelerate the action that all those players are able to take in order to address the problem that Peter Fox has highlighted this afternoon.

Delyth Jewell AC: I think that most people look at the situation of sewage in our rivers and they feel actual despair, and it’s a despair mixed with revulsion, because there can’t be a metaphor that’s more on the nose than the example of shareholders getting wads of cash while human waste is pumped into places where children play. It is the epitome of our broken capitalist system, where even the water is monetised and choked with sewage.
You’ve said, First Minister, that less than 45 per cent of Welsh rivers are classed as being in a good ecological state. NRW has estimated that £660 million is needed to bring the status of all water bodies in Wales up to 'good' by 2027, but, as you’ve said, you as a Government have set aside £40 million over three years to address water quality problems. How confident are you, please, that that level of spending, alongside that of water companies, will be sufficient? When will our waters be safe for swimmers and children to play in again?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, we need, as I said in my answer to Peter Fox, to accelerate the efforts that all of the organisations that have a part to play can make in making our waters fit for people who want to swim in them, people who want to fish in them, people who want to use them for recreation. Of course, I agree with what Delyth Jewell said about the way in which millions and millions of pounds have been siphoned out of citizens' pockets and into the pockets of shareholders of privatised companies. This is a thing that nobody can manage without. [Interruption.] No, Welsh Water—. I was just about to make the point that, luckily, here in Wales, we have a not-for-profit distribution water company, so that whereas, in England, Severn Trent will pay £355 million directly to shareholders, here in Wales we don't face that same issue. That doesn't mean that—[Interruption.] It'd be very helpful if the Member were to listen, rather than chunter at me. The problem that I said we don't face in Wales is the problem of money being taken out of the system to shareholders, when we have a company that is a not-for-profit distribution company, a mutual company, here in Wales. It is part of the reason why Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water have made a commitment that they will have reduced their phosphorus pollution loading on the special area of conservation rivers in Wales by 90 per cent by 2030, and, in their latest manifesto for water in Wales, that they will achieve 100 per cent by 2032. Now, that is one aspect of river pollution. As I said in my original answer to Peter Fox, we need all of those other sectors whose activity contributes to pollution in our rivers to play their part at a similar level of intensity.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. I do want to follow up, really, and I can hear my colleagues over there talking about Dŵr Cymru. The Dŵr Cymru chief executive, in the last financial year, was paid £332,000 as a salary. I do understand that the chief executive and the senior executive team have forgone their bonuses for this year, but it is galling to many of us, as we pay our water bills, that, actually, we see our rivers more polluted and little action taking place, and we see people in what is called a not-for-profit industry here in Wales actually being paid incredibly high salaries and actually doing us a favour by not taking their bonuses this year. We need radical action. Our rivers remain polluted. People are really concerned about the level of our river pollution. So, is what we need fully devolved powers over water here in Wales to align legislative competence with our national borders and to take full control so that we can hold Dŵr Cymru to account? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's not for me to defend the salary levels of executives in Dŵr Cymru; it is for the remuneration committee of Dŵr Cymru itself to take that responsibility. The devolution of powers over water is enormously complicated and follows river basins, rather than national geographical boundaries. I agree with what Jane Dodds said, that the full set of powers that we need in Wales is not yet in our hands, but it isn't a simple matter to put that right.
If I can make a broader point though, Llywydd, in response to that question, I remember very well that, when Dŵr Cymru was established as a mutual, one of the arguments that we made to Ofwat at the time, which was reluctant to agree to a different model in Wales—it took a lot of effort by that very new National Assembly to assert the idea that something could be done differently here in Wales. But one of the reasons why Ofwat was convinced was that we were able to say that there was a National Assembly here that would keep a careful watching brief over the activities of that water company.
While it is certainly not for me to suggest directly to any committee of the Senedd what its work programme might be, I have wondered in recent times whether there is a useful piece of work to be done at a parliamentary level in reviewing whether, 20 years into the mutual model, it has delivered on the benefits that were promised for it, what its strengths have turned out to be, where that model might need to brought up to date to reflect the concerns of today's Wales, and, in doing so, I think, would discharge that promise that was made 20 years ago that having a different model here in Wales would sit alongside having a new democratic structure in Wales, so that the oversight of the water industry in Wales would be in the hands of people elected to do so.

The Game-meat Market

Joel James MS: 6. What support does the Welsh Government provide to the game-meat market in Wales? OQ59555

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Welsh Government provides support for food and drink businesses that demonstrate growth potential in the food sector. Support includes offering targeted interventions, sector specific training, masterclasses and capital grant funding.

Joel James MS: Thank you, First Minister, and I think we can all agree here that game is a hugely sustainable meat source and has a wide variety of health and environmental benefits. For the record, Llywydd, I'm a member of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation.
As you will know, the game-meat market in 2021 was estimated to be worth £100 million to the Welsh economy, and millions of pounds have been invested by the Welsh Government through its rural development programme, to develop strategy, supply chains and an action plan for the Welsh game-meat industry. I have no doubt, given all this investment, that you were as surprised as I was to hear the Minister for Climate Change's recent comments, and I quote:
'just to be very clear, the Welsh Government does not support the shooting of live animals or birds as a leisure activity.'
Because game meat is not farmed, it has to be shot, and this can only be done profitably if it is done by those who will pay to do it as a leisure activity, these nascent comments have no doubt caused concern amongst the game-meat market in Wales. I would like to know, First Minister, if you stand by them, and, if so, can you confirm when you intend to shut down the game-meat market in Wales through the banning of game-meat shooting? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, let me be clear with this distinction, Llywydd. The Welsh Government, as the Member very fairly said, has invested considerable amounts of funding and policy support in the game industry in Wales. The Minister for Climate Change was referring to leisure shooting—the shooting of live animals for sport. I certainly do not support that. We don't support it on Welsh Government land. When it comes to the game-meat industry in Wales, that is a different matter, and that does have the support of the Welsh Government.

Home Ownership

Tom Giffard AS: 7. What steps is the First Minister taking to increase home ownership across South Wales West? OQ59576

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we provide financial assistance to potential home owners and offer a range of schemes to enable people to purchase their own homes. This includes an extension of the Help to Buy—Wales scheme and the £50 million national empty homes grant scheme.

Tom Giffard AS: I'm grateful to you, First Minister, for your answer. And anybody that's tried to purchase a home recently, or moved home, will notice that the cost of buying a new home is ever increasing. And one of the reasons for that is a lack of supply in the market. And so, we've seen, in recent years, councils, pretty routinely, failing to hit house building targets in Wales. Swansea Council, in the last quarter of 2022, built 76 homes, and in the quarter before that, they built 50. That is nowhere near to meeting the demand that there clearly is for new homes, not only in Swansea, but across Wales. And that's what adds to the increase in cost in buying them in the first place.
What we don't want to see, as Welsh Conservatives—and I hope you wouldn't want to see either, First Minister—is home ownership become the preserve of older generations and wealthier people. But, unfortunately, if we fail to meet the demand that there is for new homes, that is the model that we're going to pursue. So, what steps can you take, First Minister, to ensure that councils do build the homes that are required, so that people, particularly young people, can buy that first home and get that step on the housing ladder for the first time?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Good question.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I wish it was a good question. Unfortunately, it has such a basic error in it that the Member really ought to check what he's offered to say before he gets here. The homes that councils are building are not for home ownership at all; they are for social rent. So, when he says to me, 'What can I do to make sure that councils build houses to help people with home ownership?' that is to fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of council home building. Of course we want 20,000 homes built for social rent, and we want local authorities to play a much bigger part in doing that, but they are for social rent, not for home ownership. So, while the Welsh Government supports home ownership in Wales—we have retained Help to Buy, while it's been abolished by his party across our border—the question I was actually asked, about encouraging councils to build houses for that purpose, would simply not have the intended effect of any sort.

Finally, question 8, Joyce Watson.

Wales's Water Network

Joyce Watson AC: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the operational resilience of Wales's water network? OQ59585

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, water companies must monitor the infrastructure for which they are responsible and put in place robust plans to improve resilience. Companies must demonstrate a clear understanding of their networks and long-term trends, such as the impacts of climate change, and how these impact on operational resilience.

Joyce Watson AC: Last year's countrywide drought highlighted the pressures within our water supply network and our resilience upon it. With summer around the corner, residents in west Wales who were affected by last summer's hosepipe ban, are keen to know whether the taps can be turned on this year. I understand that Welsh Water invested £10 million to improve the network in Pembrokeshire, which is welcome, but are you satisfied, First Minister, that our water levels are strong, and with Welsh Water's chief executive Peter Perry's assurance that, 'We do not expect to have any hosepipe bans over the summer'?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that question, Llywydd. I went myself in August of last year to see the Llys-y-Frân reservoir in Pembrokeshire, which supplies that area. I've been there many times over many decades, but I was shocked at what I saw in August, because I've never seen that reservoir at such low levels of water retention. So, I'm very glad that Welsh Water Dŵr Cymru have agreed to make permanent a temporary solution that they had put in place to help increase water resource resilience in the Pembrokeshire area. Joyce Watson is right: it's a £10 million scheme; Dŵr Cymru say that it will make Pembrokeshire resilient to a one-in-every-500-year drought. The current levels of water in Welsh reservoirs has recovered strongly, but, as Members here will have observed this year, the impact of climate change here in Wales is absolutely real. We move from a month where we had more rainfall than we have had for many decades to a month in which we have had almost no rainfall at all. This means that resilience, as Joyce Watson said, Llywydd, in the water system is an even greater challenge than it would have been in previous years. I hope that residents of Pembrokeshire, faced as they were last summer with the longest restrictions in water supply of any part in Wales, will see that the investment that has taken place since will put them in a better place for whatever weather we face in the rest of this calendar year.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item, therefore, will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are three changes to today's business. The debate on Stage 4 of the Agriculture (Wales) Bill has been postponed. Consequently, statements on strengthening our ties with Ireland and the north-west of England, and celebrating volunteering, have been added to the agenda. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Business Minister, could we have a statement in relation to chalet ownership in Wales? I met some owners of chalets last Thursday, and they were giving the impression and the real effects of the council tax changes that have happened. It was my understanding that these types of properties should never be captured by the council tax scheme, and, indeed, should not be captured by the enhanced uplift of the council tax scheme in the regulations to try and prevent second home ownership. They gave hard-and-fast examples to me of how the planning system designates chalet owners as not being able to turn those properties into residential properties, and there's a clear distinction between them and someone who actually owns a residential property and can call it their home. But they gave me hard-and-fast examples of chalet owners having to pay council tax in some local authority areas, and there did seem some ambiguity in relation to the way some local authorities are interpreting the powers that they've got. They indicated that they believe that about 5,000 chalet owners exist in Wales and some are being discriminated against through the new regulations. To bring clarity to this, could the Government bring a statement forward to exactly emphasise the guidance that they give to local authorities, and the expectation that the Government has upon those local authorities of acting within the rules that, as I said, as I understand it, chalet ownership shouldn't be captured under the council tax regulations?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I was a bit unclear when you started whether you were referring to park homes, but I think you are indeed referring to chalets, which do have an exemption, as far as I'm aware. I will certainly ask the Minister for Finance and Local Government to issue a written statement to give that clarity to everyone.

Adam Price AC: Could we have a statement on the Government's policy in relation to the devolution of power over water? It's previously been implied that the biggest obstacle to the transfer of powers in this area to Wales was the attitude of the Westminster Government, but we now know through a freedom of information request that the Welsh Government asked the UK Government to postpone the planned devolution of power in this area, because of the associated complexity that the First Minister referred to in his earlier remarks. So, we have a simple solution to that problem in my party, which is independence. But can we have from the Government a statement of what the policy of the Welsh Government is? Is it to press for the immediate transfer of these powers to Wales or is it to request their continued postponement?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I certainly don't think Welsh independence would be a simple solution to anything. I'm not quite sure of the points that you've raised, so I will personally seek some clarification and I will write to you.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for two statements today, please? The first is from the Deputy Minister with responsibility for transport in relation to the concessionary travel card scheme. I've been contacted by constituents in the Colwyn Bay area, who have asked whether it might be possible to extend the use of the concessionary travel cards to the off-peak periods along the north Wales railway line when there is capacity on that line to take more passengers. It takes over three hours to get by bus to Chester, for example, from Colwyn Bay; it takes just 46 minutes by train. If we really want to help people make this modal shift, which I know we're all aiming for, then it sounds to me, given that that line does have capacity, that it's a positive thing that we could do in order to extend the opportunity to use those travel cards on that particular line. So, I do think that that is something that should be considered.
Can I also ask for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services, following the media reports in recent days in relation to the contents of the Ernst and Young report into the forensic accounting issues in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board? There are many questions that my constituents have been in touch with. There's a lot of anger out there at the way in which this report appears to have been suppressed, and people want to know what action the Welsh Government is now taking in response to that report, and we need some assurances that similar issues aren't occurring in other health boards or parts of the public sector in Wales as well. We've not been able to get those assurances, because the Minister isn't making a statement. There's no statement this week on the agenda. I do hope that one can be scheduled as soon as possible, potentially tomorrow, if the Minister has some time available.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is in his place and I'm sure he'll consider your request around extending concessionary travel in the way that you suggest.
In relation to your second request, there won't be an oral statement tomorrow. There won't be time for that tomorrow. As you know, Welsh Government do not comment on leaked documents. I don't know how many times the First Minister has said that, particularly when, as in this case, internal procedures are still proceeding in the health board. And I know that the health board is progressing the management of the issues that were raised in the report that you referred to in line with their existing procedures and policies.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I'd like to request a written statement from the Minister for Climate Change confirming the results of an investigation into the cessation of mining activity at Ffos-y-fran. While the Welsh Government has committed to a manged end to the extraction and use of coal, this bold stance may literally be undermined through inaction. In April 2023, Ffos-y-fran coal mine’s licence extension was, thankfully, rejected, but, as Delyth Jewell raised last week, campaigners continue to be concerned that mining is still going on illicitly. I’m grateful for your assertion that the allegations are based upon coal being transported from the site rather than evidence of extraction, but I wonder if we could hear a little bit more about how that's been looked into, particularly in the year of us being disappointed that Aberpergwm’s expansion will now go ahead, with millions more tonnes of coal continuing to be extracted from Welsh soil. I hope we’re able to take urgent action in relation to Ffos-y-fran at this point. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Any developer risks having to undo and pay for work that hasn't been legally permitted, and responsibility for investigating breaches of planning control do rest with Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council in the first instance. The Member will be aware that the role of Welsh Government is to determine any planning appeals against enforcement notices served by local planning authorities, so, to avoid prejudice to this role, we cannot comment on the merits of this case. But I do want to reassure the Member and everybody else that the Welsh Government does want to bring a managed end to the extraction and use of coal. We all know we're in the middle of climate and nature emergencies, and the response to these emergencies must be very swift and it must be serious so we can pass on a Wales to future generations that we can be proud of.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm seeking a statement this afternoon from the Minister for Health and Social Services on north Denbighshire community hospital, or the lack of north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl. I feel a bit like a broken record when I raise this, but recent developments suggest that there was a motion brought to Denbighshire County Council by Councillor Brian Jones, and the motion stated that the aim was to utilise some of the beds in the Royal Alexandra Hospital to relieve some of the pressures from Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, with a long-term view to delivering north Denbighshire community hospital. Now, the leader, the cabinet and councillors from your party voted this down, which, to local people, is seen as a bit of a threat to the long-term ambition to deliver on north Denbighshire hospital. So, I’m seeking a statement this afternoon on whether this is still a priority for the Welsh Government, or are we just wasting our time.
In a lot of responses from the Welsh Government on this matter, it's stated that you’re waiting for Betsi Cadwaladr to submit a business case. Over Easter recess, when I visited the Royal Alexandra Hospital, I was given a copy of the business case from Betsi Cadwaladr, who are adamant that they’ve submitted it to the Welsh Government. So, can I have a statement clarifying this position on whether we are going to see some tangible evidence of some progress in Rhyl so my constituents can be reassured that this is still on the horizon of the Welsh Government?

Lesley Griffiths AC: A decision has yet to be made on the Royal Alexandra Hospital scheme, so it's not appropriate to have an oral statement at this time.

And finally, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Minister, can I ask for a statement from the health Minister about what she's doing to improve access to healthcare in south-east Wales? I'll elaborate why I'm asking this question. A constituent of mine selflessly and rather heroically ran into a house fire to help her neighbour's children get to safety. As a result, she inhaled smoke and was suffering from chest pains, and, as someone with asthma, she wanted to get checked out. Her first port of call was her GP, who said they couldn't test her because they didn't have the necessary tests. She was then sent to minor injuries, but was told there wasn't a doctor available, so they sent her to the Grange. My constituent waited more than two hours to get triaged and had to wait an extra six hours to get her bloods taken. She waited then 10 hours to be told that she'd have to wait at least another 10 hours to be seen. Understandably, she wasn't willing to wait that long and decided to go home and use her inhaler more than usual instead. When she asked why the wait was so long, my constituent was told that there was simply no room for the doctors to see patients within the hospital. My constituent then told me that the waiting room was so full that people were being told to wait outside, and because there is no tannoy system or screen showing patients' names, many were missing the calls to be seen by a doctor or a nurse. It's clear that a tannoy announcement system needs be put in place at the Grange so that patients can hear their names being called. This is a system adopted by so many other hospitals across the board, Minister. So, I hope that the health Minister does take my constituent's concerns on board, and I'd appreciate a statement from the health Minister about what she's doing to improve access to healthcare in south-east Wales, and especially within accident and emergency departments. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, it does sound to me as if the issue that Natasha Asghar raises is an operational matter for Grange hospital, so I do think it would be more appropriate to write to the health board.

I thank the Minister.

3. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change: Update on Bus Services

The next item is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, which is an update on bus services, and I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement—Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I am keen to update Members of the Senedd on the future of bus services across Wales. The last few years have been the most challenging period for the bus industry since the ill-advised privatisation on the mid 1980s—[Interruption.] Put simply—

Before you carry on, some Members are keen to comment on every single sentence that's uttered in this Chamber. Just please allow the statement to carry on. You know I'm looking at you, even though you're not looking at me—[Laughter.]—very wisely. I'll take that little bit of cheek, but if we can please allow the Minister to carry on.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Simply put, COVID blew up an already brittle business model. In the face of sustained reductions in passenger numbers, we’ve had to provide significant additional support to keep services running, and this has prevented mass cancellations of services and kept communities connected. Since the start of the pandemic, we’ve invested over £150 million to keep the bus services running over and above our pre-COVID levels of investment. And our actions have saved an industry, and went over and above action taken by the UK Government. Whilst England lost 9.5 per cent of its bus services last year, in Wales that figure was 2.4 per cent because of our actions.
But while COVID has eased, the impact of the pandemic is still being acutely felt. Around the world, in fact, the number of people using buses has still not returned to pre-COVID levels. This inevitably has left a large gap in the finances of bus companies in Wales. This external shock has shown the hollowness of the privatised model of deregulation. Although they provide a public good, bus firms are private companies, but who are now operating in a market without enough customers to make them profitable. During COVID, we had emergency funding we could access to get us through the crisis, but that has now all been spent. The climate emergency demands that we increase bus use, but the age of austerity that the UK Government has chosen to pursue means that our options for dealing with the fallout from COVID are highly constrained. This is not a situation unique to Wales, but we are the only Government in the UK working to reform the way we run buses to create a coherent planned system of franchising. As we set out in our recent White Paper, our reforms will allow us for the first time to plan for one network, one timetable, all accessed by one ticket, and, in preparation for that, Transport for Wales is working closely with local authorities to plan baseline local bus networks that we can use as a basis for franchising. We’ll be able to specify which routes we want in return for public support, not the vagaries of the market. The model of franchising we are developing is the most ambitious in the UK, and I have asked Jonathan Bray, a highly experienced figure in the bus industry who has led the Urban Transport Group, the UK’s network of city region transport authorities, for a decade and a half, to bring together a small group of experts to help us shape the details of our new system.
The question that has been exercising all of us over recent months is how to get from where we are today to where we want to get to—to franchising—and it is not a small challenge. I am very grateful to representatives of local government, the bus industry and Transport for Wales for working really closely together with us to find a way through our short-term challenges. As a result of our joint working, we’ve agreed to extend the existing bus emergency scheme until the end of the school year in July to avoid any disruption to students in the run-up to exams. We’ve also agreed to set up regional planning teams supported by TfW to work with bus companies to establish which services would be viable without additional financial aid, and what routes are the priority for the funding that we are able to make available. These teams have been working hard in partnership with us and the industry to reach a solution for bus services, and they’ve made significant progress in reviewing the networks in their areas and finding ways to make them better reflect new post-COVID travel patterns. 
I also met last week with our trade union partners, along with industry and local authority representatives. They have been campaigning to recognise the importance of bus services, and they have an important role to play as representatives of those working in the bus industry, who see every day how services are running on the ground. We want to work more closely in social partnership, in line with the model we set out in our White Paper last year, to bring the right people around the table to set the direction for bus services in Wales—our so-called 'guiding mind'.
We have nearly reached a solution that will allow us to make further funding available to protect as much of the network as we can for the remainder of this financial year. This needs to be a more sustainable solution, with a network that reflects changing travel patterns and helps us make the transition to franchising. The Welsh Government will make £46 million available from bus budgets to support BES and successor arrangements for the whole financial year, as well as to keep our strategic TrawsCymru services running. This is in addition to the £45 million we are forecasting spending on concessionary fares for older people, and reduced fares for young people, and our other regular support for the bus industry, including the £25 million bus services support grant, and all the funding we indirectly invest in the industry through local authorities, particularly for school transport. Home-to-school transport makes up around a quarter of all local authority direct spending on education. That figure is now around £137 million a year, and we need to do more to consider school transport as part of the overall public transport system.
To help operators meet inflationary pressures, we have agreed to uplift the amount we reimburse operators for concessionary journeys by 10.1 per cent, to reflect their increased costs. We have taken these steps as the result of strong joint working. We have been meeting regularly and working intensively to try and find solutions. Further urgent work is needed with the regional teams and operators to consider how far we can make this funding go. The emergency funding has been a lifeline, but it's had the impact of preserving a pattern of services that existed before the lockdowns. Travel behaviour has now changed; there are fewer people using buses and trains, and the times of day they are using them has also changed. There are fewer commuting journeys and more leisure journeys. We therefore do not want to keep a pattern of services running that no longer reflects demand or need.
The challenge we then have is to design with local authorities and operators a network of services that can best serve passengers in the time we have available to plan, and within the funding that is available to us. This is a task that only can be done at a regional level and in partnership. The work we have done and the relationships we have built in responding to this crisis has put is in a stronger position to get ready for franchising, and the issues it has thrown up make the case for reform unanswerable.
We must have a bus system that is based on the needs of people, not on the needs of the market. For it to be sustainable, we need more people using our buses. We have been discussing with Transport for Wales and industry partners, and the trade unions, how we can best shape a campaign to get people back onto buses. Once we have finalised a way to put services onto a stable footing for the next 18 months, we can then turn in earnest to a joint effort to promote those services. Restoring patronage is critical to a healthy future for our bus network, so I'd ask Members across the Chamber to think about how they can encourage their constituents to use the buses in our local areas and support a recovery to the level of service we all want to see across Wales.
I hope Members have found the update useful. We're not there yet, but we are making progress. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar AS: Can I thank the Deputy Minister for this afternoon's update in relation to bus services in Wales? I just cannot stress enough how important bus services are to so many people all across the country, giving people access to getting their groceries, to attending appointments, and allowing them to socialise and stay connected. However, the sad reality is that this essential form of public transport has been facing drastic cuts as a result of the impending cut to the bus emergency scheme.
We were warned that, without extra funding, some 20 per cent of bus routes across Wales face being cut, with hundreds of jobs being placed at the risk of redundancy. Because of this uncertainty, many people who have run bus services for their local communities for many years are already leaving the industry in search of more stable employment opportunities. All of us, I'm sure, across the board, want to see thriving and effective public transport networks all across Wales. However, it is a mind-boggling fact that bus fares in Wales have increased by 174 per cent compared to 1995. And I'd like to remind everyone that buses are indeed devolved here in Wales, as opposed to elsewhere. Deputy Minister, I have no doubt that you share that view, given the Government's aim to get people out of cars and onto greener methods of transport.
I really do welcome today's announcement that the Welsh Government is making £46 million available to support the BES for the whole financial year. It's clear that people in all four corners of the country are concerned about the ongoing situation with buses. A recent poll did find that 54 per cent of people fear their travel to work or education will become more difficult if bus services are reduced, with 91 per cent of people worried their commutes will become more expensive if services are also reduced. It also found that 41 per cent of people said that they would be forced to use a car if buses aren't an option, a stat that I'm sure will ring alarm bells for you, Deputy Minister.
I've been working closely with bus operators and other transport groups for a while now, and they've made their views abundantly clear to me. The Confederation of Passenger Transport recently set out their three calls to the Welsh Government, and I wholeheartedly say that I support all three of them. They estimate that the major cuts to the current bus network could be avoided if the Welsh Government delivers an extra £30 million investment between July this year, when the BES ends, and the end of the financial year. So, as I said earlier, we really do welcome this extra funding, as it will also buy the Welsh Government time to work with the industry.
The UK Government has been working tirelessly with the sector in England to attract more people back onto buses. Since I raised the fantastic £2 fare cap with you, Deputy Minister, there have been further developments across the border. Recently, the Secretary of State for Transport, Mark Harper MP, announced the £2 will continue to the end of October this year, at which point a cap of £2.50 will be brought in. This Government investment will protect bus services into 2025 and keep travel affordable for residents. I've asked you on a number of occasions, Deputy Minister, to look at introducing a scheme to incentivise bus travel, and it is promising to hear plans are finally afoot for the campaign to encourage bus use in Wales. I know it's very early days, but perhaps you could shed a bit more light on how this potential campaign and the commitment to giving Members regular updates are going to be happening, going forward.
I know we don't necessarily always see eye to eye, but I am keen to know what you are doing in this matter, because we really do need to get it right for the people of Wales, and the sooner the better. Because I'm concerned, quite frankly, that services might in fact be rolled back after the financial year is over, as opposed to going forward. So, I'd really like those assurances, Deputy Minister. Thank you so much.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. I'm not sure there were many questions for me there. I think the question I did manage to understand is the role of the fare cap that has happened in England. This is a source of enormous frustration to us, because we've been working on modelling a £1 fare cap for the last 18 months, and before the Liz Truss budget blew a hole in the economy we thought we had a sporting chance of being able to deliver it, but, as a result of runaway inflation and increased costs, we've not been able to do so. So, to hear the UK Government announce a fare cap with new funding, it says, to then be told there are no Barnett consequentials because it's coming from existing Department for Transport budgets, is galling. And even if we did get a Barnett share of the money they've announced, it would be only a fraction of the money that we need to do a scheme of our own. So, I'm afraid the Member has swallowed hook, line and sinker the spin of the UK Government, and I'm afraid there's very little substance to it once it is scrutinsed.
She says she supports spending an additional £30 million. I've just announced that we'll be putting an extra £20 million on the table. There remains a gap. We don't have the exact figures yet, and that's what we're working through. These are very complicated things to disentangle, because the money that's given to local authorities to fund concessionary fares is done in arrears when we know the actual spend that's taken place and we aren't able to reconcile those figures in real time. So, we have to wait until the full picture has emerged. We've done some excellent work with them to try and look at efficiencies, and we've managed to reduce the burn rate of concessionary fares and the BES significantly as a result of that system. So, the effort we've been making has shown there are efficiencies to be made in the system. But we don't have the funding available to us to keep every single bus service currently running. As I've just said in my statement, there's a strong case for looking again at our pattern of bus services to reflect current demand.
That's the process we're still going through. As I said, it's an update statement—it's not the final word. We're working closely with them. I wish we had the money we needed to expand bus services, to increase frequency, to reduce fares. We don't have the money. Natasha Asghar isn't able to tell me where I can get the money, but I can assure all Members that we're doing our very best to make the situation as useful as possible for passengers and communities.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for this statement. I appreciate the work that the Government is doing on this. But the fact remainsthat we are facing a critical situation because the BES scheme, in its current form, is due to come to an end. Things are better than they were, but things are still fragile.
We know what the challenges are: the number of passengers is about 15 per cent lower than pre-COVID levels, as you set out; costs have increased as a result of inflation and other challenges. Groups such as the CPT have contacted many of us to warn, as we've already heard, that 20 per cent of trips across Wales may be lost if more money is not invested. Groups such as the Coach and Bus Association Cymru are concerned that the figure could be even higher.
And jobs are at risk. The impact will undoubtedly be worse for small businesses—the businesses that don't make payouts to shareholders, but that serve the community; businesses that don't have huge resources behind them, headquarters outside Wales and big cash reserves. I'm thinking about those businesses that are husband-and-wife firms. Those community businesses could disappear without more certainty.
So, I agree with you that the situation needs to be stabilised. We need to do that for the benefit of our communities as well—communities that are in danger of being isolated and left behind. Because, again, and this has already been said in the Chamber this afternoon, it's the most vulnerable people who are the ones that will suffer most because of this. Recent polls have shown that approximately 54 per cent of people are concerned that bus services could affect how they could get to work or school.

Delyth Jewell AC: Minister, I welcome the news—I genuinely do welcome the news—of the £46 million. That could help avert the immediate crisis and give the industry breathing space, and give the Government, as you set out, time to work with partners, I hope, on this marketing push, to encourage more people to use buses. If you have any more detail, please, about the timetable of how that will be spent and the detail of how it will be spent, I'd be grateful, because I know that you recognise the severity of this situation, and how important it is to get that extra funding.
In terms of how it will be spent, could you tell us, please, if there's an equivalent scheme elsewhere in the UK or in Europe that might not be directly about buses, actually, but another service that has been affected in some way by the pandemic in terms of numbers not returning that we could learn from in terms of the behavioural change and how that could be fed in? I quoted the figure of 54 per cent of people who are worried about how this could affect them. Will the Government be looking to target help towards the people who need it most in any of this recovery work, please? There is, I understand, an underspend in the concessionary fares budget. You may have just clarified this in response to Natasha Asghar's point, but I didn't quite pick it up, so if you could repeat that, please: how much that underspend is and if that will be used in any way to plug this gap.
But beyond the money, and beyond the next 12 months, beyond the next 18 months, there's evidently a need for investment and for research into how we can change people's perceptions of buses. We've spoken about this a number of times before. I know that can't be rushed, and I'm glad to see that the Government is keeping an eye on this in the longer term as well as the immediate crisis, because you've spoken about how we need to catch up, almost, about where people are, how people's habits have changed as a result of COVID. I suppose, as well as that, I'd ask how we can help encourage people's—. Well, not encourage, but try to ensure that people's habits and what people want to do in terms of using buses won't even just return to how they were before the pandemic, but are changed utterly and that people see using buses as something that they would want to do, because certainty is needed for the industry and for communities beyond these 18 months.
And this is the point that I'd end with, Llywydd: communities need these bus routes, and bus routes that suit them, not ones that suit the timetables of big companies, because we can't keep getting to this situation of stepping back from a cliff edge every 12 months, every 18 months; it's not something I know that you would want either. So, I do welcome the points that you've made already in terms of campaign work, and I know that many of us would very much support what you've said there, but any more detail that you could give us, either now or in the coming weeks, I'd be grateful for. I realise I'm out of time, Llywydd, so I will just say, finally, that any help that could be given that is couched in terms of not what's commercially viable but what's vital for communities would be particularly helpful. Diolch yn fawr. Sorry I've gone a little over.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the support. In terms of the final point, very little is commercially viable; I think that's the point. So, all of it requires, more or less, ongoing support, otherwise it will cease, and that's the grim situation that we are in. What we've been doing with the local authorities, through these regional scrums, as we've been calling them, is to identify what are the priority routes. We particularly want to make sure that, when schools return in September, there are school buses there for them, so that they are able to continue without interruptions—that has beeen a key focus of our planning work—but also, the socially necessary routes. Local authorities have a duty of their own to support socially necessary routes, but a number of them don't put any funding in themselves. Some do; RCT, for example, does, and others have chosen not to. So, there's a patchwork of arrangements. That's why I think going to franchising creates a far more uniform pattern that we can have the same degree of consistency across Wales on.
On the timetable for the work that we're doing, we need to make decisions imminently. As I said, the current scheme is coming to an end in July. The bus companies will have to give notice to the traffic commissioner of services they want to deregister by the middle of June, and the employers will have to begin a consultation process with their workforce if they are going to cancel the bus services and issue redundancy notices. These are all unmoveable deadlines that we very much have in our mind and we are working towards.
We are close, I think, to coming to a point where we're able to make some decisions, but we're not there yet. I didn't want to wait until that point to bring a statement to the Senedd, as I'd promised to update you as we went along. But, clearly, we are going to be losing some services—far fewer than we were when I last spoke to the Senedd, thankfully, because we have been able to release the underspend from concessionary fares. Demand for concessionary fares is about 60 per cent of where it was, so we were able to move that money across. That's the rough £20 million I mentioned, to go on top of the £18 million that was already in the budget, as well as, then, support for TrawsCymru and the inflationary uplift for concessionary fares. Taken together, that's where the £46 million comes from. As was mentioned earlier, it falls short of the figure that local authorities and the industry think is required to preserve every single service, as is now. That would require somewhere between £7 million and £9 million; we're not certain. We simply don't have that money, and that's very frustrating. Clearly it's not a position any of us would want to be in, but we've all made decisions about budget priorities, and we've decided to prioritise a number of other pressures that we think are important.
We also have significant extra pressures on the NHS. We all understand the good of this and we will want to support it, but I'm afraid the difficulty of being in Government is you have to meet multiple priorities and there isn't the money to go around to deal with all of them. That's what we're trying to make sure—that we prioritise those that will help those in need the most and carry the most passengers, to get us so we don't have a cliff edge, as she says. If we can get certainty at this decision point, we should then have stability for 18 months, which will take us to the end of this financial year; we have similar money, then, rolling forward to the next financial year. Obviously there are some variables, depending on what happens to future demand for concessionary fares. If that goes up, then obviously the amount of money available becomes squeezed. So, there are lots of uncertainties in this, but we need to get to a planned, orderly, strategic system in franchising, and that's the jiggle that we're having to do the moment.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I welcome the statement and continued dialogue and partnership working. I've got two questions. What impact assessment has been done across portfolios—in education, to deliver local transport measures, as public transport operators already currently provide school transport, which is fragile, and I've heard that costs are increasing by 40 per cent; the impact on mental health due to social impacts of isolation, and our cross-party group heard how important the interaction is with drivers, as well as other passengers; in health, around accessing medical appointments going forward; and economy, in terms of getting to jobs, as well as jobs in the sector at risk? Arriva have said that 200 jobs could be at risk in north Wales.
The second question is on the campaign on the new network, which, I hope, is not just based on urban and commercial viability, but also the rural areas. May I suggest that we also include all levels of government, drivers, the older person’s commissioner, Age Concern, citizens advice bureaux and the voluntary council for that campaign? I’ve heard that concessionary pass holders are the ones who have not returned back the same, and also, it’s been suggested about incentives. So, local authority leaders and other partners have suggested a capped universal fee of £2, which Natasha’s already asked about, and extending the concessionary passes to under 23-year-olds, but perhaps charging a £1 fee. So, that’s come from the authority leaders and operators themselves. Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well, to deal with those in reverse, as I explained, we’ve already been working on exactly such a policy since I was given the post two years ago now, and we’ve done a huge amount of work in modelling what that would be. So I absolutely share the ambition for a £1 flat fee. It’s the right thing to do for social justice, it’s the right thing to do for climate change. We simply don’t have the money, and it’s all very well for different groups to say, ‘We need more', I understand the need for more, I would love to deliver more. But austerity means that we have less money as well as, as Carolyn Thomas rightly points out, the bus industry themselves facing increased costs at a time of decreased demand. So there is a gap in their fare box revenue, and we are struggling to keep going the level of support that we had during the pandemic. So I’m afraid there are no quick fixes to this. This is just tough stuff, and we are doing our very best by co-working to come out of this with the most robust network we can find to get us onto a sustainable pathway to franchising. We hope that, through the campaign, by getting more people on buses, increasing the revenue into the bus network, we’ll then be in a position to expand the network. We don’t want to lose the network. We’re going to have to flex it in the short term, but we want to then rebuild it as part of meeting our carbon targets and our modal shift targets.
She rightly says that school transport needs to be a critical part of our thinking, and from the very beginning, I’ve been working closely with the education Minister Jeremy Miles and his officials, who’ve been attending all of the weekly meetings that I’ve been holding over the last few months with all the different stakeholders to make sure that that is very much front and centre of everyone’s thinking, and the signs are that the efforts have been worth while, and we will have stability, but we won’t be able to keep all the services we have. I’m confident that, because of the extra £20 million we’ve announced today—a total of £46 million beyond what we were able to discuss last time—we will be able to bring stability, and that figure that you mentioned, that the Confederation of Passenger Transport had mentioned, their fears of cuts will be significantly less than that. But we don’t know yet exactly what that figure is until we finish our work.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today, but it would be remiss of me not to highlight the shambolic rail replacement services that we currently have in my region by Transport for Wales. It's a classic example of how a lack of foresight and a lack of understanding of commuter need is seriously hampering the ability of the Welsh Government to provide adequate transport services for the people of Wales. The fact that people are relying on these buses as a replacement for rail while the rail infrastructure is upgraded, and are met with buses failing to turn up, buses too big to go under bridges, or buses that are too small to meet the demand just shows the scale of contempt for commuters. I would like to know, Deputy Minister, what conversations you've had with Transport for Wales to put this right, and what compensation you're going to provide to those commuters for this appalling service?
Finally, I also want to highlight a recent meeting with bus operators in my region, where it was brought to my attention that people moving into new-build housing estates are not using the bus services provided and are instead relying totally on their cars. If I quote the service director himself, he said that people in new-build houses don't use the bus, quite frankly. With this in mind, Deputy Minister, I would like to know what strategy you have in place to specifically encourage those who have moved into new-build housing estates to utilise the public transport. Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: I'll try to deal with both points. First of all, it's silly of him to suggest that we have contempt for commuters—quite the reverse. The whole point of the upgrade to the Cardiff and Valleys lines is to dramatically improve the service for commuters. That, unfortunately, does involve disruption in the short term. This is one of the largest pieces of rail infrastructure investment since the days of Brunel, and that can't be done, I'm afraid, without stopping services, because to try to put overhead lines in whilst other passenger services are running on all parts of the line is impossible. We've done that on very many parts of the line, which is an engineering miracle, frankly, but we simply couldn't do it on the Treherbert line. So, I think he should be less inflammatory and understand what we're trying to achieve.
He's right about rail replacement buses—they are not doing what we expect them to do. That's partly a reflection of the very fragmented, privatised nature of the bus industry. Now, this is not part of the statement today; this is a separate arrangement with TfW for—. This is not part of the scheduled bus services, but it is, in a way, a reflection of a dysfunctional private sector system, because the companies just aren't there with the fleet available when we need them, and we are looking at creating an operator-of-last-resort model for buses, just as we have with the railway currently, so when there is a failure, there can be a TfW-owned-and-run fleet of buses that we may be able to deploy more flexibly. It's not straightforward to do, but that is something we are investigating, because there have been significant failures in rail replacement services not turning up at the right place, the communication not being given, the boards not showing the live times, and so on. So, I fully acknowledge that there have been problems there, and I am speaking regularly with TfW about addressing those.
On the second point about how we attract people onto buses, well, that's partly a focus of the campaign that I mentioned. He touches on a broader issue, though, which is new housing developments not encouraging people onto buses. That's partly a failure of the planning system, which we're putting right through 'Future Wales' and making sure that new housing developments are not placed in out-of-town developments where there aren't bus networks, and that, certainly, has been a failure. It also shows the reason why we're bringing franchising in, because, at the moment, whether a bus service runs or not is a commercial decision by a bus company. So, if there were a new housing estate, the bus company would be under no obligation to run a bus unless they thought they could make money out of it. Often, as he said, they wouldn't, so there's no service for them in the first place, which then compounds the car dependency we are seeing.
So, the behaviour change we need to see as part of the broader modal shift is very well illustrated by the example that he gives. There isn't a simple solution. We need to look at planning policy, we need to look at roads policy—that's one of the issues, if he's read the roads review, that's covered there. We'll also look at planning policy, which, again, if he's read, 'Future Wales', is covered there. But, we are talking about reversing a pattern of development, a pattern of thinking and a pattern of service provision that's been ingrained for decades and will take some time to address.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, there are a number of things to welcome in this afternoon's statement. Certainly, there has been panic among constituents believing that some services would be scrapped—the No. 90 in Pontypridd, for example. A number of people have been in touch because they don't have alternative transport. I think we're talking about getting people to move from their cars to the buses, but for people where it's only the bus that's available to them, announcements such as this are extremely important.
I wanted to raise a point, too, that Delyth Jewell mentioned, in terms of the idea of having a campaign. In Scotland, the campaign, 'Choose the bus'—there's a very popular hashtag and many people are promoting it, and £300,000 has been invested by the Scottish Government and Scottish Confederation of Passenger Transport. They have the second Scottish bus week—a week of campaigning around buses. Are those the kinds of things that you're considering? Have you had any discussions with the Scottish Government to see what kind of impact these campaigns are having so that we can also learn lessons from other Governments that are trying to tackle the same problems and challenges as us?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. We are working with CPT on this, which, of course, has the experience across the UK, and they've agreed to put a small amount of funding into the pot for the campaign. We'll need to carefully design it, based on data and nudge points, with TfW to make sure that it is effective. There is no magic pot of gold I can dip into to pay for it, so this would need to come out of the overall sum. So, we'd need to top-slice other funding to pay for that, but I think that is a very good use of the money to make sure that we are promoting.
As I mentioned in the statement, we've begun thinking about that, but the main effort at the moment is to sort out the main problem, before turning our minds to promoting the services we then are able to preserve, because there's no point promoting a set of services that may not be there in the future. So, that is definitely very high on our priority list, and I agree with what she says about the case for preserving it, and the importance of it. The difficulty I face is getting the money to do that. I think we’ve done a lot; it’s very frustrating that we’re not getting a Barnett consequential from the additional money that has been announced in England. It’s yet another example of announcements that are made—when it comes to it, we’re told that it’s being funded within existing budgets. Now, this is half a billion pounds they claim to be funding within existing budgets. The NHS for the English pay settlement, I think, claim to have £7 billion within their existing budgets to pay for that, and we are beginning to think that, maybe the UK Government Treasury is not being as straightforward with us as they say they are, because they can’t keep funding such large sums of money for this from down the back of the sofa, and then telling us there isn’t a population share for us. There seems to be something broken about the way the Barnett formula is being implemented and we are considering how we might raise this with UK Government.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, over the last few weeks, I’ve had over 100 handwritten letters from residents in Alyn and Deeside concerned about potential cuts to bus services. I share their concerns, particularly about people and communities being left isolated, and that jobs could be lost across this sector. I’m very grateful for your updates today to Members, but what further assurances can you give to my constituents that the Welsh Government is doing absolutely everything possible to keep buses running across north Wales?

Lee Waters AC: Well, thank you for that, and 100 handwritten letters is a significant number, and it reflects the strength of feeling there is about buses. You hear the old cliché, 'use it or lose it'; people start to value something when they think it’s not going to be there anymore, and clearly, not everybody has been using the bus, because demand is significantly lower than it was. So, I hope, if anything good comes out of this stressful period, that people realise the value of the bus network and start to use it again.
There are no simple and easy choices here, because we have multiple things that people care about that also need funding, and as I mentioned, the pressure on the NHS is considerable, the housing shortage is considerable, and the cost of building these projects has gone up, whilst our funding has reduced.So, these are all very difficult trade-offs that we have to make. We know that bus services are vital for people, particularly on lower incomes and older people who may not have an alternative. We also know it’s critical to give people alternatives to the car; we’re urging them to shift transport modes, and of course, there has to be an alternative there for them.
So, all of those things are very much in our mind, and we’re trying to make best use of the money we’ve got. What’s been quite significant about this process we’ve gone through with the local authorities regionally and the operators is that we’ve been able to make the money stretch further than it was being stretched before. So, there were real inefficiencies in the system, and that’s why the bus emergency scheme needs to come to an end. It was done in a crisis to deal with a very short-term problem. The problem is now changed and we need to change the funding mechanism and how it works to do that. So, I do hope that, by the end of this, we’ll be able to reassure Jack Sargeant’s constituents that many, if not most of the services, will still be there. I’m not in a position to say yet how many that will be, but certainly, far more as a result of the extra money we’ve been able to commit, but we’re not, sadly, able to fund all of them, in part because they’re not all being used to the extent that they were.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much for your statement, and thank you, also, for being very upfront in terms of what we can afford and what we can’t, and I agree with much of what you’ve said. We do need a culture change, and that’s down to all of us, isn’t it? Maybe we should have a ‘use the bus day’ for all Senedd Members every month, or something like that. We do absolutely need to exemplify the behaviour change we want to see in our residents.
One of the things we’ve always talked about in the Welsh Liberal Democrats is free public transport for under 25s, and we’ll keep pushing that, understanding the changes that that would require in terms of budget commitments. But I just wanted to talk about rural bus services, because the business model is slightly flawed when it comes to demand and need. The need is great in our rural areas because of social isolation, and I’ve talked about the ladies of Llangynog before, going on their buses just once a week to go and have their hair done, their coffee, their shopping, and that’s in north Montgomeryshire, but there are many other rural areas that I know we could talk about, whereas the demand isn’t there, so whilst the need is high, the demand isn’t really there for regular bus services. So, I just wondered how we could build in a model of how a business strategy could look for bus services within our rural communities. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Well, clearly, the bus ecosystem is different in Ceredigion and Powys than it is in many other parts of Wales and we have representatives from both those authorities on the groups that I chair weeklyand the points are clearly made, and we are working with them to make sure that we maintain as consistent a pattern as we can with the current services. Clearly, the TrawsCymru network is a real additional benefit from that, and, where that is running, is being welcomed, particularly since we've had the investment in the electric buses and the lower fares. And that just goes to show, in rural areas, you can have a functioning public transport system if you have the money to invest in it. And that's certainly our ambition for all rural areas.
The Burns commission in north Wales, which is reporting in September, has an interim report due out soon, and has been asked specifically to look at the needs of rural areas and what public transport systems could be viable. It's likely, I think, that the demand-responsive Fflecsi-type model is something that is going to be looked upon favourably. Again, we've got to fund that. That is our biggest challenge, I think, at the moment—there's no end of things we'd like to do and could do and would be valuable, but how do we release the funding to do that is an ongoing headache, frankly.
So, I completely share her analysis of what is needed, and we are working hard with partners to do what we can to get there. And franchising, when it happens, will certainly help us. But you can have as perfectly designed a system as you want—unless you've got the public funding to put into it, it's only as good as the investment that you have available. And I think that's a case for all of us to think about—the relative importance of public transport versus other priorities.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I really applaud, at the beginning of my comments, the work that's been done, the joint working that's been done by the Minister and partners across Wales, and in the regional scrums, to bring forward something that may see us through the short-term difficulties, give us some breathing space and get us to that franchise model and a more sustainable future? But, on that point of a more sustainable future, I know you're not able to read every single word of the climate change committee's evidence, but we heard this the other day:
'I really do think...that something the Welsh Government may need to consider is the universal free travel on the concessionary scheme...I would strongly favour'
said this witness, for example,
'a £2 flat rate for the vast majority of the public and £1 for concessionary.... Should we consider, like say, a nominal £1 charge—to travel anywhere you want in Wales if you’re a pensioner for £1; if you’re an adult, you're charged £2. Those kinds of figures get you into the realm where actually, for, maybe—it’s still tens of millions—£20 million or £30 million addition on top of the current money...we could have a more sustainable service'
and it'll drive up passenger usage, 'and I know, perhaps,' the witness says,
'politically, it is a hot topic...but I do think we’ve got to look at this for the long term'.
That was Andrew Morgan, leader of the Welsh Local Government Association. It was picked up and echoed by other people from different parties represented from the WLGA on that call. Today, isn't this the moment now we need to seize everything, put everything on the table, and look at how we fill that fare box for the future?

Lee Waters AC: Well, as I mentioned, not only have we considered it, we've planned it, we've done the modelling work on it. We've taken it extremely seriously as a viable option, and the Cabinet has endorsed it. What we don't have is the money to pay for it, because I'm afraid it's not £30 million, as you mentioned, but more like £90 million, on top of the £200 million we currently spend on buses, is what you would require. And I think there's a shared ambition that we still aim to get that point, but we're not at that point now. We simply don't have the money—

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Concessionary fares.

Lee Waters AC: I'm sorry, it's hard to keep up with additional comments. The Member says 'concessionary fares'. You can slice and dice it whichever way you like. We've looked at a range of models—of a £1 flat fare for everybody; we've looked at free travel for young people; we've looked at a flat £2 for everybody; £1.50 for everybody. We've done the work, because it's my ambition too. But, as I say, we simply just don't have the money to pay for it, and I wish we did, and I hope we'll get to the point where we will.
I very much welcome Councillor Andrew Morgan's comments, and I've had constructive conversations with him myself. And the point he makes is that working with local authorities—because, as I said, they have a legal duty to support socially necessary bus routes—some local authorities, like your own, don't do that, others, like Andrew Morgan's, do. So, there's an inconsistent picture across Wales. And then the conversation we need to have with local government is: would they be able to put a sum in, which we then would be able to match, which would get us closer to where we want to get to? And I think those are the conversations that we now need to be having.

James Evans MS: Minister, I thank you very much for your statement today, and, in comments that are related to Jane Dodds's, rural communities find it extremely difficult to access public transport, but, as you said about theTrawsCymru area, not everywhere is going to be able to benefit from that. Most of my rural communities have got third sector organisations running community transport, and they play a vital role in actually filling the gap where, actually, the services can't get to, even if they are nationalised, as you want to do.
So, can you actually explain what work you're going to do with third sector organisations to actually help put community transport in areas, because I think they'll be vital, actually, in reducing emissions and helping with our climate change targets?

Lee Waters AC: The Community Transport Association is part of that group that I am chairing, and they're very much involved in the conversations. They have an important part to play in that patchwork of provision. But, whichever way you approach this issue, it's the quantum of money that's the issue. I don't wish to make a petty point here—I'm making a real point that, when our budgets are squeezed, when 12 years of austerity bites, this is where we end up. It used to be that local authorities used to subsidise socially necessary bus routes as a matter of course. That stopped when the cuts were made by the Conservative Government. The money just hasn't been there because of political choices around reducing budgets. [Interruption.] Now, Mark Isherwood grabs his head, and I feel his pain—I often feel like that when I hear him speak, so I've got sympathy. But it is an ineluctable fact: if you have less money, you can provide fewer services. I find some of their points deeply disingenuous, while, on the one hand, they support austerity, and then they get up and say, 'Well, why are you cutting things? Why aren't you spending more?' Some basic arithmetic would do a world of wonders on the Conservative benches.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I thank the Deputy Minister for the statement today and for the assessment, which is a sobering assessment, of the challenges facing us. But of course, somehow, in the future, we're going to have to build a bus service that serves our communities and some of the communities that are hardest to reach. Like Jack Sargeant, I've had dozens of letters from constituents that list their genuine concerns about what would happen if support was withdrawn from our bus services. And while the Deputy Minister does say that there are fewer services that have been lost in Wales—one in every 40 rather than one in 10, as it is in England—if your community, your village, is one of the ones that's lost its service, you have a problem. So, could I ask for certainty from the Deputy Minister that the work that is going on now does look seriously at ensuring or how to ensure that rural and semi-rural areas such as Anglesey aren't isolated when the new model is put in place? And a specific question about school buses: schools are served by bus companies that provide services around their areas during the rest of the time; what consideration is the Minister giving to the risk that, if we lose bus companies, we lose those companies that take our pupils to and from school too?

Lee Waters AC: I'm acutely conscious of that threat, and that is one of the reasons why we'll be making sure the school routes are very much part of our initial planning, because they do provide a revenue stream for companies then who are able to provide other services. In the medium term, I really want to bring those sorts of services into the franchising model, so we're not seeing school transport as separate to scheduled services. We need to get young people using service buses, and we need to get them part of a regular pattern of buses. As I've said, I absolutely recognise the rural challenge, and I've been doing some broader work on how we fit sustainable transport into a rural setting, and there are lots of things that can be done that other countries do, that put the investment in. So, in parts of rural Switzerland, in Germany, for example, every village has a bus service every hour, and they fund that by a tax on local businesses. So, this is all doable; the question is the choices that we want to make politically about how we raise the money for that and then how we distribute the money. And again, I say to the Plaid benches, again in all sincerity: we have together agreed budget priorities, we have decided to prioritise free school meals, rightly—we are all supportive of that—and a range of other things. Once that money is spent, it's then not available for other things, and I'm afraid buses have had a significant amount of investment, but not enough investment to meet the full gap that we've seen through a collapse in demand and an increase in costs. So, we're all going to have to face up to the reality and consequences of our choices and make the best of it. But there's no moral superiority of anybody in this Chamber of what do we want to see; we all want to see a better functioning public transport system. And again, I say to all of us: we need to reflect in future about the relative priority we put on public transport.

Alun Davies AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, the Minister said, perhaps inadvertently, something very interesting earlier, where he sort of accused the UK Government of cooking the books, essentially. I think that's something, Deputy Llywydd, that the Minister may wish to return to this Chamber to report on, when he's able to do so, because that's fundamentally important in terms of the governance of the United Kingdom.
I met with Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council yesterday to discuss the impact of the end of the current budgets on bus services in the borough, and what we found was that the bus services most at threat are the bus services that take people to access other public services and to access rail heads and rail services. So, all the ambitions that the Welsh Government have are undermined by the current policy position of the Welsh Government, and, of course, we still do not have access to bus services to the Grange hospital, despite that having been promised for the best part of a decade. So, the Welsh Government is saying one thing, but its policies are delivering another.
The final point I wish to make is on Fflecsi. Now, the Minister and I have discussed the Fflecsi pilot that's been run in Blaenau Gwent, and he's aware that, as a consequence of that pilot, Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council are looking now at a hybrid model of Fflecsi, which learns the lessons of the pilot, which learns the lessons of the experience of running a Fflecsi service, and wants to deliver a Fflecsi service to industrial estates, for argument's sake, enabling people to go to work, whilst a timetable service in the middle of the day. The Minister's said before that he's broadly supportive of that. Will he, this afternoon, give an assurance that he is supportive of that, and that Welsh Government officials and Transport for Wales officials will be asked to work with Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council to deliver this hybrid model in the future?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for those comments, even the backhanded compliment. Let me just address them in reverse order. He will know from the work he did leading the Valleys taskforce that the issue of bus provision was one of the main priorities of people right across the Valleys, as it is in other communities across Wales. And in fact, the Fflecsi project came out of that work that he started and I picked up. And we did try and get Blaenau Gwent as the first of the Fflecsis, but the local authority simply didn't have the capacity. It's great to hear that they are evolving the model and they are piloting and trialling iterations of it, and that's exactly what we want to do. We are trying it in different settings. So, I'd be very keen to hear more about the tweak that they've come up with, and I'll ask TfW to engage with them and to report back to see if we can learn lessons from that.I think that the rural Fflecsis are different again, but that is the point of the Fflecsi. The clue's in the name, isn't it? It's meant to be flexible.
In terms of Welsh Government ambitions being undermined by Welsh Government policy, I would say the ambitions are being undermined by austerity, by post COVID and by a broken business model. So, I don't think it's as—. It's a little glib to say that we are undermining our own policy. We are working very hard, in spite of the headwinds, to achieve our policy, but we have forces pushing in the opposite direction. And that's what we're trying to do in the short term, is work our way through those short-term challenges to get us to the point where our policy is directing us, which is easy to access, low-cost, frequent public transport for all. That's what we all want, but, for a range of reasons I've rehearsed this afternoon, that is difficult.
And as for inadvertently saying something interesting, I do try my best to deliberately say something interesting, which is not always welcomed. [Laughter.]

And finally, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I just want to ask a little bit more about the criteria for the priority routes for that baseline network you were talking about. I want to speak up for the valley communities where there are no rail links and buses are the only form of transport. We've heard about rural communities, isolated communities. These aren't isolated communities; it's just that the rail links were taken away. And they also have a lower than average level of car ownership. I think I heard you say that social deprivation and need will be taken into account, but I'd like to have some assurances that lack of rail provision will also be taken into account. And also I'd like to ask what evaluation of the free bus schemes that some local authorities have instituted, like Swansea city and county, for instance—what learning has the Welsh Government made of those experiences, as regards who, for instance, could be targeted or patterns of use that could be targeted by the type of campaign that Heledd Fychan spoke about?

Lee Waters AC: Okay. Thank you for an interesting set of questions. On the criteria for the base network, before this crisis erupted we'd been systematically working our way around Wales trying to develop with local authorities a base network based on analysis. So, I think a number of the authorities in north Wales, for example, have done the work with TfW, where they use mobile phone data to show start points and end destinations of journeys, and then try and map that against their bus network, to prioritise where the base network we would want to have put out for franchising would then serve demand.1
So, there has been quite sophisticated work going on, which I think looks very promising and interesting. What we've had to do during this crisis is speed up that rapidly to work with local authorities for an imperfect solution in the short term to get us through this crisis. The base networks that we are developing with the funding available will not be identical to the ones we'll be franchising, but they will be the start of that work and that thinking of where the key core network should go, and deprivation absolutely is one of the criteria we're looking at as part of that.
In terms of meeting the shortfalls in rail provision, this is exactly one of the points of franchising, because once we have franchising and we give TfW a critical role, working with other partners as part of this 'guiding mind', as the White Paper sets out, they will then be a multimodal operator, so they'll be able to look at bus and train side by side. At the moment, we have real inefficiencies, because we are operating bus services that compete with rail services on the same footprint, which makes very little sense. And then we have other communities that don't have rail networks and that are less well served. So, rationalising the system based on these base networks, which arebased on analytics of showing where the journeys people want to make are, will allow us to have a more efficient and more planned system, so that communities are not left out.
The final question on the free bus schemes: I noticed Swansea has just announced another scheme for the summer holidays and for Christmas, which is excellent; Newport have done similar things, and Cardiff too. The data is all encouraging. They show an increased uptake in use—surprise, surprise—as we've seen across the world. Dunkirk, for example, has a free bus service, which is heavily used. So, back to my point earlier, there's nothing stopping us doing these things other than the political choices and the budgetary choices we all make, but I think what we've not done as a country, and I mean the whole UK here, is value enough and spend enough on public transport, compared to our continental neighbours, to provide that service. Instead, we've had this privatised model where the passenger has to pay, and so you have rising bus fares, and we've certainly seen that since privatisation, which then has driven lower usage, and because of the commercial model we have, we then have services withdrawn, and austerity has stopped local authorities from filling the gaps. That's why we're in the mess we're in today. To reverse that is going to take time and is going to take money, but the franchising move and the role of TfW is critical to putting us on that pathway, and the regional work is also very encouraging. But we're not where we need to be or want to be, and this crisis, as a result of COVID and austerity, has not helped, but I hope some good will come of it.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Cost of Living

Item 4 is the statement by the Minister for Social Justice on the cost of living. I call on the Minister, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. The cost-of-living crisis continues to overshadow the lives of thousands of Welsh citizens. It is impacting those things that are essential for maintaining good health and well-being: keeping warm, having sufficient food to eat and having a roof over our heads. The Resolution Foundation recently predicted the rising cost of food will overtake energy as the driving force behind inflation this summer.
Welsh Ministers continue to call on the UK Government to help those hit hardest by the crisis: to increase local housing allowance rates; to provide additional funding for discretionary housing payments; to abolish the benefit cap and two-child limit; to change the universal credit deductions policy; and to implement a one-off payment for people receiving means-tested benefits, to provide relief against continued rising prices.
Our Cabinet sub-committee on the cost of living is attended by the whole Cabinet and has been vital in ensuring co-ordinated action across Government. It includes partners from the third sector, local government, Wales Trades Union Congress and faith groups, and has discussed many aspects of the crisis.
Last week, for example, the Trussell Trust reported on a 37 per cent increase in the number of families using foodbanks in its network for the first time compared to the same period in 2021-22. This is hugely valuable to our understanding of how the crisis is being experienced on the ground, and how our interventions are impacting.
The independent expert group, chaired by Professor Rachel Ashworth, also brings together a range of experts, including the IFS, Citizens Advice Cymru, National Energy Action, the Bevan Foundation and Shelter Cymru. They will make recommendations in June about how we can best support people dealing with the crisis.

Jane Hutt AC: Since the crisis began, we have refocused programmes to target support and keep money in people's pockets, allocating more than £3.3 billion in support, which, our analysis shows, is reaching those who are most disadvantaged. Despite budget-planning challenges, tackling poverty remains a cross-cutting theme, prioritising support for the most disadvantaged households. This includes: our £38.5 million discretionary assistance fund, which provides direct financial support to people experiencing extreme financial difficulties; our £11 million single advice fund services, supporting people to access the financial help they're entitled to and manage their debts; and, since 2019, £16.838 million has supported community food organisations to tackle food poverty and supported food partnerships to tackle the root causes of food poverty.
We continue our support for the social wage, the programmes that help keep money in people's pockets, such as, our £244 million council tax reduction scheme; our childcare offer that, in line with the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, has been expanded so that more families can benefit; our commitment to free school breakfasts and to free school meals as part of our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, which has seen nearly 5 million additional free meals served since September 2022 to primary pupils. More families than ever now benefit from our schools essentials grant—the most generous of its kind in the UK; and the education maintenance allowance will rise to £40 a week for the next two academic years. Wales is the only part of the UK to do this.
Aside from this direct financial support, we continue to build on our £1.2 million support for credit unions last year to support people to access responsible and ethical credit and savings products. Credit unions are also going into communities through the £500,000 per annum credit union programme, such as the new hub that opened last month in Penywaun, Aberdare, which I'm visiting later this week.
I convened two meetings of responsible lenders recently, with a view to strengthening partnerships and sharing information and best practice between agencies working with financially vulnerable people. Arising from this collaboration, a benefits calculator is now available on the Welsh Government website, and has been shared through a joint Welsh Government and responsible lenders campaign that has successfully reached over 50,000 people.
I've also met with energy suppliers and called on them to work with households to find workable solutions to the rising cost of energy without resorting to installing prepayment meters. I've been appalled to see households being transferred to prepayment meters against their will at a time when energy companies were announcing record profits. Ofgem announced an updated code of practice on 18 April, which I welcome, but I've urged suppliers to go further by moving quickly to a legally binding solution and for Ofgem to act on incidents of bad practice. I've raised the issue of standing charges for prepayment meters with Ofgem and UK Government, emphasising energy companies should absorb these costs. I am pleased that suppliers will now be required to conduct an independent audit to identify wrongly installed prepayment meters, and offer compensation and removal of the meter where required.
I met with Community Housing Cymru yesterday to discuss these issues and their impact on social housing tenants, including our call for the introduction of a social tariff to help consumers with energy costs. We are working with the UK Government to encourage prepayment meter customers to redeem any outstanding UK Government support vouchers by 30 June. I look forward to Ofgem's price cap announcement on Thursday—analysis suggests there will be a reduction.
I welcome Scope’s disability price tag research that highlights how disabled people have been disproportionately impacted by the crisis. Our disability rights taskforce is working with those affected on developing a new disability rights action plan. Targeted Welsh Government action has also supported disadvantaged households, through initiatives such as our fuel support scheme and our support for prepayment customers, including those using off-grid fuel.
I would like to take this opportunity to highlight the Building Communities Trust event in the Senedd tomorrow that Buffy Williams MS is hosting. It will provide an opportunity to learn first-hand from the community groups about how the cost-of-living crisis continues to overshadow lives.
Finally, Deputy Llywydd, we maintain our commitment to work with partners to develop and deliver bespoke solutions to the problems we face here in Wales as a result of the crisis. Partnership working is essential in helping people to access the support they're entitled to and promoting the take-up of other sources of support, such as social tariffs. It is also an essential part of our continued longer term investment in preventative measures that support people to improve their life chances, help build resilient communities, and deliver for the well-being of Wales as a nation.

Mark Isherwood AC: The Labour UK Government's March 2010 UK budget statement recognised that the scale of the deficit meant the UK didn't have enough money, with Chancellor Alistair Darling admitting on tv that Labour's planned cuts in public spending would be deeper and tougher than the 1980s, which followed economic meltdown under Wilson, Callaghan and Healey. Austerity was therefore admitted and then inherited, and failure to reduce the deficit would have risked bigger imposed cuts, as happened in Greece and Ireland. Debt cannot be reduced until expenditure falls below income, and the UK Government had almost eliminated the deficit when COVID-19 hit. Without this, the UK would have struggled to raise the £300 billion borrowed to see us through the pandemic, which, for example, saw the UK Government pay the wages of around a third of the workforce, and spend billions supporting businesses and households.
The war in Ukraine then caused the largest commodity shock since the 1970s, with households across the world feeling the cost-of-living crisis, and the poorest households spending a larger share of income on food and energy particularly vulnerable. Was the Minister aware that analysis by the International Monetary Fund shows that, in responding to this, the gross size of the UK Government's consequent energy support package, relative to gross domestic product, is one of the highest in Europe? Was the Minister also aware that the UK Government cost-of-living support in 2023-24 is worth £26 billion, in addition to benefits uprating, including the state pension being increased by 10.1 per cent, in line with September inflation?
Questioning you here in January, following the Welsh Government's announcement that it was not continuing the winter fuel scheme beyond 2022-23, I asked you whether this would be scrapped entirely, replaced by the original £100 payment, or replaced by something else. I'd be grateful if you could answer this now.
Further, questioning you here last week, I noted your confirmation to my office that although the Welsh Government had made up to £90 million available for payments to eligible low-income households, under the 2022-23 winter fuel support scheme, less than £65 million had been spent on this by 28 February this year, when applications closed. I asked you whether this underspend would therefore be carried forward, and if not, why not. I'd be grateful if you could also answer this now.
Regarding its new Warm Homes programme, the Welsh Government has confirmed that a new demand-led scheme to replace Nest is expected to be procured before the end of 2023, which will enable the new scheme to be awarded late autumn and mobilised over the winter, with delivery expected to be achievable from late winter. Will you therefore provide an update as to when it will actually be procured and delivered?
Although housing is key to sustainable community regeneration and tackling poverty, the last UK Government oversaw the lowest level of house building in England since the 1920s, despite promises to the contrary. Housing cuts in Wales were even greater. Although the current UK Government delivered 232,816 new homes in England last year, the Labour Government here only delivered 5,065—2 per cent of the England figure, with 5 per cent of the population. When is the Welsh Government, therefore, going to tackle the affordable housing supply crisis it created from 1999, prior to which it didn't exist?
How is the Welsh Government engaging with the Competition and Markets Authority following last week's publication of its update on action it is taking to help contain cost-of-living pressures in road fuel and groceries?
How will the Welsh Government respond to the child poverty report in Wales, published by Barnado's Cymru last week, which stated that over a third of children—34 per cent—in Wales are living in poverty, the highest proportion of any UK nation? It called, amongst other things, for the Welsh Government to implement a
'cost-of-living crisis fund to enable organisations and individuals to access funds for people facing immediate and significant hardship.'
Last week, the UK Government announced that it was extending its £2 bus fare cap to help passengers with the cost of living. Why isn't the Welsh Government providing equivalent support to help passengers and protect services in Wales?
Finally, rising prices have hit people in Wales particularly hard because 24 years of Labour Welsh Government have left Wales with, according to official statistics, the lowest growth and prosperity per head out of the UK nations since 1999, the lowest pay packets in the UK and the lowest employment of all 12 UK nations and regions—official figures. Will the Labour Welsh Government ever recognise that until it starts tackling the causes of these dreadful figures, the people of Wales will continue to pay the price?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, Mark Isherwood, I don't see much of a response to my statement today, which was a constructive statement about the issues and the ways in which we are co-ordinating action here, as a Welsh Government, against the backdrop of a UK Government that has instigated 13 years of austerity, which has blighted the lives of people. People across Wales continue to experience an unprecedented cost-of-living crisis, fuelled by soaring energy prices, escalating fuel and food costs, made in 10 Downing Street.
Let's just look at the economy for the moment: the fact is the Bank of England has revised its forecast for recession in 2023, by saying that the UK is forecast to have the weakest major economy in the world and become the only G7 nation to shrink, as the International Monetary Fund has warned. And the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development said, on 17 March, the UK is the only G20 country, except Russia, and the only G7 country, to see negative growth in 2023. And the UK economy is still 0.5 per cent smaller than it was in late 2019, when the last general election appeared immediately before the start of the pandemic. It is bottom of the G7 league table for growth since that pandemic. This is the backdrop of what the Welsh Government has had to suffer from in terms of the cuts to our funding allocations from the UK Government, insufficient to enable us to repeat many of the schemes that we have been installing over the last year to address the cost-of-living crisis.
Of course, I have mentioned all the calls to the UK Government: increased support for households in the cost-of-living crisis—that's what we pressed for; increased funding for public services, investing in growth to boost the economy across the UK; repeatedly pressing the Chancellor to maintain the energy price guarantee; but also calling for those actions that I've laid out in my statement. If you would join us in calling on the UK Government to abolish standing charges on prepayment meters, increase local housing allowance rates and funding for discretionary housing payments, and to abolish the benefit cap and two-child limit.
I have said that there are ways in which we can work together with the UK Government, although I have to say the Secretary of State at the Department for Work and Pensions never replies to any of my requests for us to meet together and to work together. But we have said that we are going to encourage prepayment meter customers to redeem any outstanding UK Government support vouchers by 30 June. Please can we, across this Chamber, at least agree that that's something that we can jointly work to promote? Because it is those on prepayment meters, as Jack Sargeant has pointed to, and across this Chamber so often—. It's not just the shocking way that prepayment meter customers have been treated, but the fact that, actually, they've been denied those UK Government support vouchers that have to be claimed by 30 June.
So, I hope that you will come, Mark Isherwood, to the Building Communities Trust event tomorrow in the Senedd. Buffy Williams is hosting that. You will see, from community groups, what impact the cost of living is having on people's lives. And I hope that you will take a more constructive approach to how we tackle these issues and back us in our calls to the UK Government to help address these issues.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you for the statement, Minister. I also want to refer to the report that was published last week by Barnardo's Cymru, which has underlined the extent and adverse impact of the cost-of-living crisis on families and children in Wales. Sixty-one per cent of parents said that their financial situation had deteriorated in the last four months. The high price of food was one of the biggest concerns, and young people mentioned that they could not afford to travel for education or work, or to meet their friends.
A new report today inThe Guardian reveals that food price inflation is at the third highest level since 2008. I agree with you, Minister, that the Westminster Government has a very significant responsibility for this—in refusing to ensure a welfare system that is fit for purpose, in refusing to increase the local housing allowance, and in cutting spending on public services until the holes in the safety net mean that more and more families are falling into poverty and crisis.
In fact, Labour's deputy leader in Westminster, Angela Rayner, criticised the Tories for removing child poverty targets recently, something that I would fully agree with Labour on, but also something that the Labour Government did here in Wales, which you were a part of back in 2016. It is good to hear that work is happening across Government to ensure action. I'm sure that every Member here could report on how the cost-of-living crisis is hitting our communities—how much space is there for the voices of those who are directly affected by this crisis in these discussions?
You refer to the large amount of money that is being spent by the Government to try to support households that are facing entirely unacceptable hardship in twenty-first-century Wales, and Plaid Cymru does welcome that. I am, of course, very proud that some of the core parts of these plans, such as free school meals for primary school children and the expansion of free childcare, are the product of the co-operation agreement between our two parties. But I didn't hear anything in your statement regarding the work on updating your child poverty strategy. So, can you give us an update on that important work—not just a timetable, but also how this strategy will achieve the goal? How will you develop a clear, cross-governmental vision? And most importantly, how will you measure the impact of the strategy? Do you agree, Minister, that, in order to do that effectively, targets need to be set to tackle poverty, and that those targets have to be ambitious and measurable, targets that could reflect what is achievable with devolved competence and devolved funding? How else can we see what works and what doesn't? That seems to have been the message of MPs and the leadership of your party in Westminster.
I would like to know how this strategy will learn the lessons of past strategies, where no sufficient or significant progress was made in the eyes of experts and poverty campaigners here in Wales.Plaid Cymru does support some of Barnados Cymru's demands on the Welsh Government included in their report, such as accelerating the introduction of free school meals wherever possible, including giving immediate access to children whose parents receive universal credit, and extending free school meals to secondary schools as soon as possible, as the next step in the flagship policy stemming from the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.
Similarly, although the Government has agreed to increase the education maintenance allowance, young people told Barnado's Cymru that £20 of that £40 is spent on bus journeys and therefore that there is a need to increase the allowance and look at the cost of transport for young people as a matter of urgency. Do you intend to act on these recommendations? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. Thank you again for acknowledging where so much of this crisis lies in terms of responsibilities—with the UK Government and 13 years of austerity. Can I say how much I value the reports that have come from Barnardo's Cymru? I know there have been updates from Citizens Advice Cymru, who sit on our cost-of-living crisis sub-committee, but also I've mentioned the fact that the Trussell Trust came to our cost-of-living sub-committee, and reported on the 37 per cent increase in the number of families using foodbanks for the first time since the period in 2022. What came over very clearly from that presentation that we had from the Trussell Trust is the impact it's having on people—as you say, those with lived experience, single adults and single parents, households with children, unpaid carers and people with ill health or disability. Ethnic minorities and disabled people are at high risk. Many of you will know, and you will know from your constituencies, that, actually, not only is the demand on foodbanks increasing, but the supply of food and the pressure in terms of accessing food for our foodbanks is now a considerable pressure.
I do want to say that I've mentioned all of the other ways in which we are supporting people through the cost-of-living crisis, not just in terms of tackling poverty. There's the council tax reduction scheme—again, I urge our colleagues across the Chamber to recognise that this is something also about take-up, to ensure that people do take up the council tax reduction scheme. Actually, I have to say that almost 214,000 pay no council tax at all as a result of the council tax reduction scheme, providing £244 million of financial assistance to almost 270,000 low-income and vulnerable households. Also, we have given more funding to local authorities so that they can reach out post-pandemic to those who are most vulnerable.
I do think, also, in terms of the roll-out of free school meals, that what's really important as part of our co-operation agreement is enabling eligible pupils to receive a free school meal during the school holidays, up until the end of the May half term, including all bank holidays during this period.
I certainly would want to ensure that people with lived experience, whom we meet and who come through as a result of evidence given by the Bevan Foundation, Barnardo's, Citizens Advice Cymru—that they can reach out to them. But, I also meet with people at the sharp end on a regular basis who are struggling with these needs and issues, but also who are giving evidence of what it means for their lives. I'm looking forward very much to going to Penywaunin Aberdare later on this week, because I know that there I will see how the credit union that is reaching out to so many communities is having a beneficial impact. I'm shortly going to meet the Poverty Truth Commission in Swansea, and I look forward to that as well.
We do need to work on—. You know, it's our responsibility to streamline application processes, and I think the First Minister pointed to the ways in which we're doing that, in terms of access to free school meals and to ensure that we have the understanding about those who'd be eligible for access to benefits. We need to break down those barriers. In our charter for social security, we are taking responsibility in terms of the powers and the finance that we've got, despite the austerity and the UK Government cuts to grants and to benefits.
Just finally, on the child poverty strategy, we have gathered the views of over 3,000 children and young people, parents, families and community members with lived experience of poverty, and all those who speak out with and on behalf of children and young people. We actually had a small grants scheme to help that engagement. We will be launching the draft child poverty strategy in the early summer, leading to a formal 12-week consultation. It is very much a co-produced draft strategy, and I look forward, obviously, to the results of that consultation and to discussion and scrutiny in this Chamber.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I will be at that event that is being sponsored tomorrow by Buffy, isn't it, I think it is, on the Building Communities Trust event, not least to meet up again with Matthew Rowlands and his team from Caerau. Caerau is part of the Invest Local Caerau fund and the initiatives there, working with grass-roots organisations to provide support, advice, help and investment—tangible investment—on the ground there in Caerau, which is a very disadvantaged community, but has brilliant people in it and a brilliant network of people supporting each other as well.
I was with Matthew last week, Minister, in the Noddfa pantry. I don't think you've visited there, but if at any time you want to come up and see the work they're doing out of the Noddfa centre, it would be fantastic to have you. They work in a food pantry there, but, of course, we have other food pantries, including Baobab Bach, within the constituency, which you met with recently, with myself and Luke Fletcher and others. We also have foodbanks now in pretty much every community. So, can I ask you, Minister, in light of your statement today, where you've acknowledged that Trussell Trust, FareShare and others are struggling now to provide sufficient food to the foodbanks, food pantries and food distributors throughout the patch, how can we properly co-ordinate what food is available now across areas like my own? Can I thank you in advance for offering to come back down to meet with Baobab and others to discuss this very issue towards the end of June? We need to do this, but it's incredible now that we're actually struggling to find enough food to provide to the foodbank, the food pantries and the food distributors. That is a telling, sorry tale of where we've got to across the UK.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Huw Irranca-Davies. I would very much like to visit Noddfa in Caerau and to meet all those people, who are reflected in communities across Wales, where people at the sharp end of the cost-of-living crisis are working together, often as a result of funding that has not just come through the Welsh Government, but through local authorities, through trusts, through community groups. Obviously, I acknowledge the work that Matthew Rowlands is undertaking and I look forward to meeting with him.
I think this goes back to what we need is this constructive approach, which we are taking. Communities are taking this constructive approach to how they can address the cost-of-living crisis, and that includes tackling food poverty. Again, I've mentioned the considerable funding that we've given to support community food organisations. That actually has helped access things like fridges, deep freezers, et cetera, for some of these pantries. We've seen that at Baobab Bach, and also through the very inspiring Big Bocs Bwyd initiative, which schools are embracing, which is also having an impact on the curriculum in terms of pupils engaging and learning about food as well as access to affordable food.
But, also, to ensure that we can address this issue of shortage of food where FareShare can't take on any more members, we're funding a new stall for them, later on in this year, this will be opening. But the work that we're doing is enabling organisations also to reach out and not only buy things such as hot water bottles—this is where we are in 2023, in this situation. Period dignity, obviously, we're funding those products, baby banks, uniform banks, and I have heard of such good schemes—we've heard about them today—where there is sharing of goods to meet needs.
But also I think, really important—and this does link to discussions I've been having with Lesley Griffiths—leading to our community food strategy and also to the work that's being done by cross-sector food partnerships in each local authority area. So, this is about, again, trying to tackle the root causes of food poverty, but ensuring that there's co-ordination on the ground of food-related activity. They are engaging with Public Health Wales. I met with Community Housing Cymru yesterday, advice services, addressing local need, maximising the effectiveness of projects, reaching out to our major supermarkets and seeing where those funding shortages are in terms of how we can support this. I look forward to engaging with you and meeting with you.
But can I just finally say, of course, a lot of those foodbanks are also linking up with credit unions? They're providing information on benefit take-up, they provide a place where people can meet and get advice, they can get period products. They are actually enabling communities to respond in a very proactive way, learn from each other and support each other in a real 'Here to help' campaign.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. Not only are people having to suffer the most expensive energy system in the whole of Europe because of a decision by the UK Government to peg energy costs to the spot price of gas, which means there's absolutely no incentive for them to change to renewables, but we don't yet have any sort of social tariff, which would enable people who are already struggling to try and make ends meet from just keeping themselves warm.
I was astonished to read in the letter you wrote to Stephen Crabb recently that the report on the benefits system in Wales done by the Welsh Affairs Committee, all of the recommendations were rejected by the UK Government, which would never happen in this place, and I just wonder how it is we can get any sort of social justice in one of the richest countries in the world unless we have a Government that is willing to listen and learn, because it seems to me that one of the biggest issues is that if people live in private housing, they do not have enough money to keep a roof over their heads and eat, and that is one of the most absolutely toxic issues that’s affecting the most vulnerable households. So, how are we going to move forward on trying to get this social tariff, because otherwise, poor people will never be able to heat themselves?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. Well, I mean, we did get to the point where Grant Shapps actually did say—this is when the whole scandal of the prepayment meters and devastating impact enforced installation was having on people’s lives, the most vulnerable people—where he did say that he thought we should be looking, as we’ve called for endlessly, at social tariffs, and also Ofgem. And I’ve met with them on a number of occasions, as you know—Jonathan Brearley, the chief executive, and the board here in Cardiff. But they also have agreed to look at social tariffs. I’ve raised this every time I’ve met with energy suppliers, and indeed many of them have said, ‘Yes, we’re prepared to look at social tariffs'. The UK Government has now got to take action on moving to social tariffs. I think it’s really important; we’ve been talking to Dŵr Cymru today; they have a social tariff, and we pay, we all pay towards that social tariff. This is the way we should be doing it, we should be sharing the burden. This is about progressive taxation. We should be sharing the burden, and particularly of cuts to the help, like the energy price guarantee issues that people are facing.
So, thank you for raising that question, and again, perhaps that message can go back from us today, because it should be a cross-party call for social tariffs, as I said in my statement earlier on.

And finally, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, the statement you made earlier at the beginning of your statement this afternoon on the relative weakness of the UK economy is profoundly important. The impact of Tory economic mismanagement, austerity and Brexit have come together—well, the Tories think it’s funny—but they've come together to have a traumatic human impact on people and people who we all represent.
Minister, I met a family at my advice surgery in Ebbw Vale on Saturday who were speaking about how hard they work to hold their family together and the impact that the cost-of-living crisis is having on them and their family unit and their daily lives. They spoke particularly about the impact of childcare costs, and how they’re working so hard, day in, day out, just to pay the bills and just to ensure that their children have the best start in life. Is it possible, Minister, for you to write to me, or to put a letter in the library, outlining all the help and support that the Welsh Government is providing to families with young children, to ensure that everybody, whether it be in Ebbw Vale, Blaenau Gwent, or elsewhere in the country, is aware of the support available to ensure that their family gets through this crisis?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. And thank you, again, for sharing with us the plight of that family you met. Can I just say that research by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and The Guardian suggests that half of all children in lone-parent families are now living in relative poverty as a result of a decade of austerity-driven cuts to benefits, as I’ve said earlier on, which has left single parents among the most exposed to soaring inflation. And the Resolution Foundation says that the UK’s failure to tackle inequality and weak growth over the last 15 years has left the average British household £8,800 poorer than its equivalent in five comparable countries. But what we are doing in terms of our childcare offer—and I will write to you so that you can share with you constituents—is supporting more parents to increase their income, helping them into work, and in line with the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we’ve extended the eligibility criteria to include those parents involved in higher and further education courses. This is the most generous of the childcare offers across the UK. But I think, most importantly, is the expansion of Flying Start, which provides childcare. There is nearly £120 million allocated to improve that childcare availability, and of course, it's a funding of £46 million for the next phase of expansion of part-time Flying Start childcare. This is where we need to make sure that this information gets out to parents, including the benefit take-up opportunities, and I'm very grateful that you've raised that this afternoon.

I thank the Minister.

5. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: The Public Order Act—Implications for Wales

Item 5 today is the statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: the Public Order Act 2023—implications for Wales. I call on the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to make a statement on the impact of the Public Order Act 2023 on Wales. The Act was passed on 2 May.
Specific public protest measures within the Act commenced on 3 May. This included new offences relating to locking on, being equipped to lock on, and interference with key national infrastructure.Members will be aware that enforcement and policing are reserved matters and that the police are, of course, operationally independent of Government. However, our position on the right to peaceful protest is clear.

Mick Antoniw AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, we believe in a democracy where people have freedoms and the right to speak out against authority, to make their views heard, and to argue for change. Our stance supporting this important civil right has been consistently reflected in legislative consent motions, written statements, and in correspondence with the UK Government during passage of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. This predecessor Act included public order provisions, some of which were rejected by the House of Lords during UK parliamentary scrutiny. The Senedd voted to deny consent to provisionsputting in place new draconian penalties, although the UK Government pressed ahead.
While we were concerned about the Public Order Act eroding the right to protest, a legislative consent motion was not laid in Wales, as the Act was outside Senedd competence. However, we continued to raise concerns with UK Ministers during the passage of the Bill. Peaceful protest is a fundamental universal right enshrined in international and domestic human rights law. The UK Parliament Joint Committee on Human Rights reported that police powers within the Public Order Act would
'pose an unacceptable threat to the fundamental right to engage in peaceful protest'.
The Act includes powers that are too widely drawn, and the rush to commence the legislation before the King's coronation appears to have resulted in too much onus being put on the police to make sense of the legislation and to assess whether a protest would cause serious disruption.
The Metropolitan police accepted it was wrong to arrest six demonstrators from the Republic campaign group in London during the coronation. They were arrested due to suspicions that luggage straps intended to hold their placards onto trolleys would instead be used to lock on. The police later acknowledged there was no proof the protesters were planning to use lock-on devices. Although Republic had liaised with the Metropolitan police prior to the coronation about their plans, it is unclear whether this information was shared with front-line officers who made the arrests. I support the London Mayor's call that there should be a review to determine what went wrong in this case.
On 17 May, the UK Parliament's Home Affairs Committee held an evidence session examining the Metropolitan police's approach to policing public protests and the practical implementation of the Public Order Act. I will take a keen interest in the conclusions and recommendations that the committee make. We do need to understand the full circumstances of this case and to ensure that any issues are identified.
Our strong commitment to peaceful protest does not mean we believe anyone should have the right to threaten, harass or intimidate others during a protest. It does not mean we condone protests that risk the lives or safety of others. I believe there were already a range of powers in place before the Public Order Act came into force, and before its predecessor Act came in, which allowed the police to strike the correct balance between the right to protest and ensuring the safety of people in Wales. It would have been very preferable to find ways to support the proportionate and effective use of existing powers, rather than developing what are increasingly authoritarian and draconian restrictions.
Worryingly, the Act widens powers on stop and search. Minority ethnic communities already experience the disproportionate use of stop-and-search powers, so are particularly at risk of being negatively impacted by this Act. Stop-and-search powers have a role in preventing crime, but, used in the wrong way, can be counterproductive and undermine legitimacy and trust in policing.
The police already have the power to stop and search someone they believe has equipment that could be used to cause criminal damage. The Public Order Act has been widened to cover anything linked to a public order offence. Potentially, that would allow the police to stop and search people not because they suspect them of being involved in a protest, but simply because they are passing by in an area where a protest is likely to be held.
I'm reassured by the work we are doing with the criminal justice in Wales partners to tackle racism in the criminal justice system. This includes implementation of the criminal justice anti-racism action plan for Wales. This plan complements our anti-racist Wales action plan. Both plans recognise that minority ethnic people are more likely to be stopped and searched by the police, and have committed to end disproportionality in the justice system in Wales.
Police in Wales have confirmed there were no arrests in Wales over the coronation weekend in relation to the new powers provided by the Public Order Act. We will continue working with the police in Wales to monitor the impact of the Public Order Act in Wales.
In Wales, we have a different vision for justice. We seek a trauma-informed, anti-racist criminal justice system, which addresses the drivers of crime and helps vulnerable people in Wales live healthy, crime-free lives. The regressive provisions of the Public Order Act imposed on the people of Wales by the UK Government underline why the devolution of policing and criminal justice is so pressing. I issued a joint written statement with the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip in April updating you on progress on this matter. Only when we have full oversight of the justice system in Wales will we be able to fully align its delivery with the needs and priorities of the people of Wales. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Mark Isherwood AC: The UK Public Order Act, which was first, as we heard, laid before the UK Parliament on 11 May 2022, and received Royal Assent on 2 May this year, seeks to protect both the public and businesses from disruption caused by a minority of protestors. The ordinary person in the street agrees with the right to protest and protecting free speech, however most people would also agree that a balance needs to be struck between the freedom to protest and the freedom of individuals to go about their daily lives. Does the Counsel General and the Labour Welsh Government therefore not agree that people rightly expect the police to step in to maintain public order? Does the Counsel General and the Labour Welsh Government not agree that intervention is required when criminal damage and extreme behaviour disrupts the lives of others, especially when this includes, for example, commuters or ambulances on public roads being blocked, and people not being able to take children to school or to get to work? Does the Counsel General and the Labour Welsh Government not agree that there is a need to clearly define serious disruption, as requested by police chiefs, empowering police to intervene against highly disruptive tactics used to block roads and cause chaos? This, of course, is regardless of the merits or otherwise of the issues being protested about, even when some of these are proposed actions that could lead to harm or death to large numbers of people.
Offences created by the Act include the tactic of individuals attaching themselves or locking on to other people, objects or buildings; certain behaviour that obstructs or interferes with the construction or maintenance of major transport projects; behaviour that prevents or significantly delays the operation of key infrastructure, including down-stream oil and gas infrastructure, railways, airports and printing presses; and contempt of court in relation to committing a protest related to breach of an injunction. If the Counsel General and the Labour Welsh Government object to these measures, how will they justify this to the public at large?
Amongst other measures, the Act also extends the powers to manage public assemblies to the British Transport Police and Ministry of Defence Police, and introduces abortion clinic safe access zones. Again, if the Counsel General and the Welsh Government object to these measures, how will they justify this to the public at large?
The Counsel General states that:
'In Wales, we have a different vision for justice. We seek a trauma-informed, anti-racist criminal justice system, which addresses the drivers of crime and helps vulnerable people in Wales live healthy, crime-free lives. '
How can he justify this when Wales has higher violent crime rates than London, and south-east, east and south-west England, when Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK in care and one of the highest proportions of children looked after by any state in the world, when figures in 2019—20 years after the start of Labour Welsh Government—found that Wales had the highest imprisonment rate in western Europe because of sentencing and custodial patterns occurring in Wales, and when, during their visit to HMP Eastwood Park women's prison, where 148 of the 340 prisoners are from Wales, members of the Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee were told that, when released from the prison, nine out of 10 Welsh inmates go on to reoffend, compared to one in 10 of those in England?
How does the Counsel General account for this, when the UK Government has responsibility for criminal justice functions but the Welsh Government is responsible for housing, health, social care, economic development, education and skills, when these women return to Wales, when these violent crimes occurred in Wales, when these children were taken into care in Wales, and when these people were sentenced in Wales?
The Counsel General has repeatedly called for devolution of justice and policing, and he's used his statement today as another platform to repeat this. Will he therefore—it's an anecdotal question; I can anticipate the answer, but—will he therefore recognise the factual reality that most people in Wales live a short travelling distance from the invisible border with the part of Britain called England, that the most populated regions crossing a national border within the UK lie along this border, that public order, just like policing and justice, operate on an east-west axis across this border, that cross-border solutions are therefore required, and that these could not be delivered if these matters were devolved to Wales?
Further, and finally, does the Counsel General recognise that to devolve or not to devolve is not about the transient policies and personalities of different Governments at a particular point in time, that both the policies of parties and the policies, personalities and parties of Government in any geographical area change over time? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank the Member for a very detailed response and series of questions? I could say that, if you actually want the answer to most of the points about devolution of justice, you only need to read the paper that we produced called 'Delivering Justice for Wales', and most of those points are answered there.
Let me deal with the civil rights part first of all. The fact of the matter is that we have more than adequate laws. We have voluminous laws in terms of public protest, in terms of issues where there would be a breach of the peace, obstruction, criminal damage and so on. So, first of all, this was a piece of legislation that was essentially unnecessary. It is a piece of legislation that is also incredibly authoritarian. I gave the example the other week, and I'll repeat it now: we saw during protests against the war in Red Square in Moscow people standing up—young people standing up—holding a blank sheet of paper and being arrested. We saw in London something very similar—people standing up with a placard, doing no harm to anyone else, and being arrested. In fact, we have seen people who were in east London, who were attending a discussion of the coronation in east London, far, far away from events, who were raided by the police and arrested because of the power that this Bill gives to act on the basis of totally arbitrary suspicion.
The Bill doesn't achieve any of its objectives. I think it is bad for policing. It puts the police in an invidious and impossible position. And I would actually say that it undermines part of the criminal law that we have long established in this country: in order for an offence to be committed, there has to be an actus reus, there has to be a guilty act. This allows people to be criminalised for committing no act whatsoever. They don't have to do anything and they can be arrested under the powers under this legislation. That is why it is inappropriate, it is authoritarian and is not the sort of legislation we wish to see. This is legislation that is aimed at suppressing protest. It is about preventing people or making people in fear of coming to express their views, to demonstrate, to engage in any form of civic activity, in fear that they might be arrested, even though they may have committed no offence whatsoever.
The Member raised a number of points in terms of imprisonment rates and so on. Those are exactly why we want the devolution of justice. The reason why we have a disproportionate number of people from minority and ethnic backgrounds who are in the prison system, a whole load of people who are in the prison system who shouldn't be there in the first place, and the fact that the way that the prison system, the way the justice system, operates, takes it outside, dysfunctionally, from all those devolved responsibilities that we have between housing, between care and so on—all those things are set out in the 'Delivering Justice for Wales' paper.
The Member made a number of additional points relating to the suggestion that somehow we were suggesting that criminality should occur and should not be dealt with. Well, I think I've made that point very, very clear: there is more than adequate legislation that's in place already. This was a politically, ideologically motivated piece of legislation, which is not about dealing with criminality; it is about the suppression of dissent. It is authoritarian, it is undemocratic and it is dangerous.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: We return to a matter I explored with you last week, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. You don't have to be opposed to the Tories to be alarmed by this Public Order Act and its many curbs on freedom of speech and the right to protest. I wonder what that rarest of breeds, a moderate Tory, like David Melding, would make of this, if he were in this Chamber today. I think we all know that most moderates would condemn this draconian legislation without a moment's pause.
I welcome the update today and the clear condemnation laid out by your Government on this matter. I don't think the statement goes as far as your comparison, during questions last week, and in your answer just now, of the arrests of protesters in Moscow and London. The comparison was a fair one and a telling one, and it shows the strength of your feelings about this piece of legislation.
I'd like to turn to an aspect of my question last week that you neatly sidestepped, however. We can condemn this all we like from this Senedd, but, if your party leader, Keir Starmer, wins power at the next general election and does not repeal this legislation, can you tell me what the difference is between Labour and the Tories in Westminster on this matter? It is remarkable that, during an interview with LBC, Starmer said of this legislation:
'Now it's on the books, I think we need to let it settle in.'
Counsel General, do you agree with me that legislation as regressive as this, that strips away the right to protest, does not need time to settle in but needs to be thrown in the bin, where it belongs? Perhaps we should not be surprised, given that Mr Starmer said previously that he would not repeal the Government's Illegal Migration Bill, which, among other provisions, effectively criminalises seeking asylum in the UK.
Then, on the radio over the weekend, we had another of your Labour colleagues, Chris Evans MP, saying that we should not be seeking more powers but concentrating on bread-and-butter issues, as if it's not possible to do more than one thing at a time.
What discussions have you had with your UK leader about repealing the Act, and do you agree that this furthers the argument for the full devolution of powers over justice and policing in Wales? And do you agree that Labour should not be trying to face both ways on a matter as important as this? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for those questions. I will do my best to answer them within my capacity. Can I just start off by saying that the issue of freedom and democracy is something that should apply across the board to all parties? And it is an issue of statesmanship when people from different parties stand together on an issue, irrespective of what the position of their particular party or party Government may actually be, which is why I think the UK Parliament Joint Committee on Human Rights, when they reported on the powers within this Act—and this is a cross-party statement now—said that the Act would
'pose an unacceptable threat to the fundamental right to engage in peaceful protest.'
The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said that the Act
'imposes serious and undue restrictions on these rights that are neither necessary nor proportionate to achieve a legitimate purpose as defined under international law.'
What we do know is that some of those who were arrested, I suspect, are likely to be taking civil actions against the police. It is clear there is also going to be a review.
The protection and defence of those civil liberties is, I think, a fundamental obligation that every parliamentarian has. I’m reminded of the Tower National Union of Mineworkers' banner that had on it, 'The price of freedom is eternal vigilance', and of course if ever there was a time to be eternally vigilant, now is it.
In terms of the other points you raise, I’ll just say this: bad legislation must be removed. Legislation that restricts or oppresses people, wherever it comes from, is legislation that should not be on the statute books. I believe this legislation is potentially in breach of international law, and certainly in breach of human rights legislation, and we may see those challenges emerging during any further actions that are taken. I will support, and I’m sure Welsh Government will support, that this bad legislation should be removed at the earliest opportunity.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: When I raised this here in the Senedd Chamber a couple of days after the events of that infamous weekend, the weekend when the Metropolitan police chief had to acknowledge error, but remarked that he'd been put in the invidious position, and his front-line police officers were in the invidious position, of having to enact a rushed and overreaching piece of legislation; when Conservative MPs and former Secretaries of State of the Conservatives criticised this as being overbearing and overreaching; when Volker Türk urged the Government to take this off the statute book—not just to rethink it, but it to take it away entirely—this is, Counsel General, complete legislative overreach by Government. It's been criticised by respected international and human rights authorities. It was rushed, too widely drawn. It includes worrying new stop-and-search powers that any democrat should be deeply concerned about. It has already put police in front-line positions into horrible positions. It's part—not just on its own—of an emerging suite of authoritarian powers that could easily be misused by a malevolent state. Tyrants would love such powers. Free people should fear a Government that creates such laws and compels police to use them.
So, could I ask him: does he believe that there is now a need for a review under a future Government, of whatever political colour, of all such legislation, to ensure that the balance of rights is protected and that citizens are not arrested on suspicion of intent of committing a crime? That's something that has more than a whiff of 1984 by George Orwell, and thought crimes, about it. What a country we have become.

Mick Antoniw AC: I agree with all the Member's comments. I do agree that there does need to be a review, because oppressive legislation has crept in to a whole variety of pieces of legislation over the course of the past decade or so of this Conservative Government. We have legislation that has become not only increasingly authoritarian and oppressive, but we have had a removal of fundamental access to the law, the abolition of rights to legal representation. We see attacks on the judiciary, on the right to judicial review, and we also see, I think, fundamental attacks on the rule of law. The rule of law is what actually creates a framework within which power has to be exercised with regard to all of these rights, and to see a UK Government that is so willing to breach international law, to try to restrict the courts or to limit the courts' ability to uphold the rule of law, is a step in an authoritarian direction.
So, I agree that all such legislation should be reviewed, and it should be reviewed on the basis that one of the fundamental objectives of Parliament—of Parliaments—is to uphold the rights of its citizens. Clearly, we have a Government that has contempt for the rights of many citizens, and we've seen that in the legislation. I hope to see the next Labour Government actually carry out such a review to abolish all of this discriminatory and authoritarian legislation, and even to establish a set of legislation that guarantees rights. Of course, we have many of those rights in the Human Rights Act 1998, but, of course, the UK Government is looking at how it can actually diminish the Human Rights Act.

Jane Dodds AS: Minority Report is a science-fiction film released in 2002, starring Tom Cruise. In essence, it's about predictive crime—the role of preventive government in protecting its citizens—and that's exactly what we have in the Public Order Act. It is an Act that has a severe anti-democratic challenge to our fundamental civil liberties. The UK Government wishes to distract from its own incompetence by transforming the right to protest into a privilege, criminalising anyone whose freedom of expression poses a serious disruption. It demonstrates not only how we are likely to see its reckless use in the future, but also how the Act will seriously undermine the shaky trust and confidence the public have in the police. Nobody should block ambulances and put lives at risk, but this isn't about that.
I really want to, in the short time I have, just be clear, Counsel General, that you will be calling on the leader of the Labour Party, should he become Prime Minister, to repeal this Act, and also Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, who has also said that he has no intention of repealing the Act. We really would like to hear that from Welsh Labour. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for your comments. I don't think that I can be any clearer that my view is that all oppressive legislation that has been brought in by this Government needs to be understood and it needs to be revoked—it needs to be repealed. I think that is one of the fundamental purposes of Government, and particularly the purpose of a Labour Government.
You're absolutely right, in terms of the comments you made about predictive offences. This is exactly the principle that is actually occurring within Russia. Why are there no protests against the war in Russia, where 200,000 soldiers have been killed already in that war? It is because people are afraid to speak out. The reason they're afraid to speak out is because even the suggestion that they might speak out can lead them to offences.
As I say, again, on this legislation, this legislation, this Act, is not just about what it does in enabling people to be arrested; it's the way in which it actually suppresses people from actually being prepared to participate in any form of civic activity itself, because they can be arrested without actually having committed any offence. Can you imagine if you'd said at the time of Magna Carta, all of the way through the development of British common law, the idea that we can arrest people even though they have committed no offence, because we make an offence of the fact that we suspect that they might commit an offence? What an outrageous turnabout in terms of our legal system, and an attack on our fundamental liberties in this country and our democratic system.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his unflinching commitment to freedom, to personal civil liberties and to basic human rights. It's a tragedy that we have a Conservative Party today that sees people's freedoms as something to be outlawed and not underpinned, and I think that's something we will remember.
What we've learnt this afternoon, of course, is that the Conservatives are very happy for policing and justice, and policing particularly, to be devolved in London, they're happy for policing to be devolved in Manchester, they're happy for policing and justice to be devolved in Scotland, they’re happy for policing and justice being devolved in Northern Ireland. It’s Wales that they want to stop these things happening. It’s Wales that they have a problem with. It’s Wales that they want to hold back, and I think that’s something that all of us will remember. And they should, rather than laughing during these statements, actually participate in these debates, and they should at least read the John Thomas report of the Commission on Justice in Wales.
Counsel General, will you give an undertaking now—and you’ve given undertakings on other matters this afternoon—that you will not only seek the repeal of this sort of legislation and its replacement with legislation that underpins our civil and personal liberties to protest, but also, will you work with the police in Wales to explore how we can guarantee the rights of people who are protesting? Protesting is supposed to be a nuisance, it’s supposed to be noisy, it’s supposed to affect people. That’s the point of protest, and that’s how we’ve got the right to vote and to sit here this afternoon, and even get things wrong. And I hope that the Counsel General will bring Welsh police forces together to ensure that the right to protest in Wales and those who take part in protests in Wales have their rights protected and enhanced, and not undermined.

Alun, thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for those further questions. You’re absolutely right about the contradictions in terms of the devolution of policing. We even have one of the Members opposite who wants to become the mayor of London where policing is devolved, but to prevent devolution of policing in the Parliament that she actually represents. I think those are sort of total ironies and issues of, I think, hypocrisy.
It was interesting to note that, of course, in terms of policing within Wales during the coronation, there were no arrests. I think there is a history of far better engagement and closer engagement despite the non-devolution of policing in Wales, just as we see in terms of social partnership. We have a far broader social partnership with all those institutions and our engagement with the police and crime commissioners, and I think the reality is that I doubt whether there is anyone who really sees any benefit to this legislation. It is divisive, and it puts law enforcement bodies in a totally invidious position, and I suspect—I cannot speak for them—I suspect a position they desperately do not want to have been put into.
We’ve had those discussions. There will be obviously continued close engagement. We have the police partnership, of course. My colleague the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, is in regular engagement not only with the police and crime commissioners, but also with the police authorities themselves and the chief constables, and I’m sure there is a different and better direction that we will take, despite this particular legislation. But that does not take away the desperate need to remove and repeal this type of legislation and those other items of repressive legislation that have been brought in by the Tory Government.

Rhys ab Owen AS: A recent report by the House of Lords' Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew our attention to a very concerning constitutional issue. The UK Government has recently drafted regulations to amend the Public Order Act 1986. If they come into effect, they would allow police in England and Wales to impose restrictions on protests and processions that cause 'more than minor'—more than minor—hindrance to day-to-day activities for other people. That's a much lower threshold than the current 'serious disruption to the life of the community'.
These proposals, proposed by the UK Government for the new Public Order Act were rejected by Parliament in January. The UK Government are now trying to obtain through secondary legislation what it failed to do through primary legislation. To put it another way, the UK Government are seeking to obtain through the back door what it could not obtain through the front door.
Incredibly, the only bodies consulted regarding these new regulations were the National Police Chiefs Council, the PCCs in areas that include the M52, and National Highways. No organisations or bodies whose protest rights would be affected were consulted at all. This is no way to pass important legislation, and there’s a real danger that Wales is being left behind when it comes to progressive policies on policing. And it’s worth reminding ourselves—

Rhys, you need to ask your question now, please.

Rhys ab Owen AS: —that the Public Order Act 2023 does not extend to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Dafydd Wigley asked last week a question about devolution of justice. Baroness Bloomfield replied by saying that the Welsh Government has not made a formal request for justice powers to be transferred. Will you commit today, Counsel General, that the Welsh Government will make a formal request to the UK Government? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Just on that last point, I cannot recall the number of occasions when the issue of the devolution of justice has been made. It's in the Thomas commission. It's made in correspondence. It's made in inter-ministerial meetings. It's made to such an extent that the UK Government spends a lot of time saying that it won't devolve justice. It believes in the England and Wales jurisdiction, whatever that is these days. So, I fail to understand any comment like that that is actually made, because it does not have any relationship to the reality of the position of this Government and the devolution of justice.
With regard to the point you raise with regard to the Public Order Act 1936, which of course was brought in to deal with Mosley's fascist marches through parts of London and parts of the UK, the idea that yet that could be used through secondary legislation to bring further restrictions on public protests is just part of that chain of events of what this Government is actually doing. We see that also in the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, which seeks to take industrial relations and the rights of trade unions to take industrial action back over 100 years. The fact that the House of Lords have amended that legislation to basically exclude Wales and Scotland because of devolution, and that the UK Government have indicated that their intention is that it will apply to Wales and Scotland, is a clear further breach of Sewel. So, I agree with everything the Member said on that, and the other Members that have spoken in the debate today.

And finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This Act is designed to treat the public and peaceful protestors like the Victorians treated children, and place them out of sight and out of mind. It's pretty obvious. And it is draconian, as you've already said, when you can lock up people for 16 hours and then release them afterwards because whatever you thought they might be protesting about has passed.
We want to make it clear that nobody here would condone violent or criminal protests, and we've heard that from the other side. Those laws exist already to deal with that. What worries me here are two things. You can actually criminalise people for doing nothing, because all you have to do is suspect them of doing something, but you're also driving fear and suspicion between the police and the public, at a time when you really need for those two sides to come together so that you can resolve issues, you can know about issues, and you can have that public partnership between those two bodies, which is absolutely critical. My concern here is, and my question to you is: will you be talking to the police and crime commissioners and the senior police officers to gauge their views on how—because this is in place—moving forward, we can ensure that we don't have that toxic relationship that this would allow to permeate in Wales in a way that we don't want to see?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. I can confirm that, obviously, those sorts of discussions and engagements are there, because although this Act is a reserved matter, the consequences of it and the broader responsibility we have for the general freedoms and civic rights of our citizens still remain. I think we have to emphasise how important the police are in our communities. We say that day in, day out. Legislation that actually creates a toxic relationship for them actually prevents them from doing the sort of work they need to be doing in our communities, and it is for that very reason that this Act is so undesirable and unwilling. We will do all we can to mitigate the impact of that, and I thank you for your comments.

I thank the Counsel General.

Before I move on, can I remind Members that you all have time limits for your contributions? Most today have gone well beyond their time limits—Peredur being an exception, as was Jack Sargeant. The time limits allow everyone to partake, and also ensure we keep within the limits of our allocated slots. Ministers, I'm sure, will also ensure that they will be succinct in their responses as well, to allow that time.

6. Debate: Stage 4 of the Agriculture (Wales) Bill

Item 6 has been postponed.

7. Statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd: Strengthening our ties with Ireland and the North-west of England

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales—strengthening our ties with Ireland and the north-west of England. I call on the Minister, Lesley Griffiiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As the Minister for north Wales and a resident of north Wales I am very aware of the close and deep ties we have with our nearest neighbours to the east, in the north-west of England, and to the west, in the island of Ireland. We're all facing similar challenges, from new trading arrangements post Brexitto the transition to a low-carbon future as we adjust to a changing climate and a future without fossil fuels. In these shared challenges, there are also opportunities through closer collaboration to benefit our local populations.
That's why I invited the Irish Consul Generals for Wales and the north-west, the metro mayor of Liverpool city region and the mayor of greater Manchester, along with the chairs of the Cheshire and Warrington Local Enterprise Partnership and the Mersey Dee Alliance, to north Wales last week. They all attended our Cabinet sub-committee on north Wales, along with local authority leaders from right across north Wales. Earlier in the day, we also had an opportunity to visit AMRC Cymru to discuss transport, skills and the north Wales growth deal, and also the port of Mostyn, to discuss our tidal lagoon projects on both sides of the Wales-England border.
There is already a significant amount of work and engagement taking place between Wales, Ireland and the north-west of England. We are working on hydrogen, nuclear and offshore wind, and developing a robust regional supply chain to support existing, new and decommissioning opportunities. As neighbours, Wales and Ireland have always had a strong and positive relationship. Recent years have brought new energy to that relationship, which has seen the opening of the Irish consulate in Wales and the development of the Ireland-Wales shared statement and joint action plan. This sets out areas of co-operation, including trade, because Ireland is our second-largest export market.
The Welsh Government will be hosting the third Ireland-Wales ministerial forum in north Wales this autumn, with a focus on areas such as renewable energy, green skills, education and language, and advanced manufacturing. The First Minister has invited the mayors of greater Manchester and Liverpool city region to be a part of the forum arrangements, to continue the collaborative work. Every day, more 200,000 people cross the border from north Wales into north-west of England or vice versa. The majority of people will do that by car. We have ambitious plans to improve public transport across north Wales, and the mayors, with their devolved powers, have equally ambitious plans. Our priority is to ensure all this connects, offering people an alternative to the car and enabling them to travel easily and seamlessly across north Wales to Manchester, Liverpool and beyond.
We can learn a lot from greater Manchester, which is taking its buses back into public control and integrating its trams and buses. In north Wales, our ambition is to transform our public transport and active travel offer, opening up employment and leisure opportunities across the region. This will support economic development and create a more sustainable future for tourism. We are already making tangible progress. We have reinstated a direct service between north Wales and Liverpool for the first time in generations and, through the north Wales metro programme, are providing connectivity to and from railway stations and bus interchanges across the coast. We've invested more than £1.6 billion, but more will be needed to deliver major improvements to link the coast and Wrexham to the Merseyrail network, for example.
We've agreed to harness our combined power to make the joint case for greater UK Government investment in rail infrastructure across north Wales and the north-west of England. There is cross-party support in this Senedd for ensuring Wales gets its fair share of HS2 funding, and I hope the Senedd will be equally supportive of north Wales receiving its fair share of UK rail investment from the Treasury to ensure much-needed schemes proceed. In seeking to strengthen our existing relationships with Ireland and north-west England, much of the focus will be on the opportunities in green energy, decarbonisation and accelerating the development of hydrogen manufacture. As a partner in the cross-border HyNet consortia, we welcome Hanson's plans to build the UK's first net-zero cement works, putting north Wales at the heart of the green transition to a net-zero Wales.
The Celtic sea represents huge opportunities for renewable energy generation. We have a shared ambition to be a net exporter of renewable energy, to work together to upgrade the grid capacity, supply chain, and, most importantly, to develop the pipeline of skills needed in these new and emerging industries. We have a strong regional skills partnership in north Wales that works collaboratively with employers, universities and further education institutes to identify the skill needs, develop apprenticeships, and create local talent pools.
With the mayors’ new devolved powers in post-16 education, we will connect on curriculum reform and FE provision, sharing learning from our Welsh baccalaureate as they explore their own. We also agreed to strengthen our university connections with Ireland and connect our respective language technology units.
I want to end by saying a few words about tourism. Visit Wales is working closely with Marketing Manchester because one in five tourists arriving at Manchester airport travel on to the Eryri region. This year, we are working with Manchester on media and press visits for a large US consumer marketing campaign, highlighting the ease of access and products of north Wales for those flying into Manchester.
Our links with north-west England and Ireland stretch back hundreds of years. They run through families, through our languages, and are definitely seen in our football club allegiances. We have a great deal in common with our closest neighbours, and last week demonstrated that there is a real appetite to work more closely together, to learn from each other, and to deliver improved services for local people in our respective areas.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I'm delighted, as an Irish citizen as well as being a British citizen, and someone who was born in Manchester, that you are talking in such glowing terms about the links that we have in Wales with Ireland, and indeed with the north-west of England—places that are very, very dear to my heart. The Minister will know as well that I've been a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly for some time, and try to engage as much as I can with that important work that they do, which also, of course, helps to build relationships across all of the islands in the various jurisdictions that they represent.
I note also that the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee is currently undertaking an inquiry into Wales-Ireland links, which I think is very good news as well, because, of course, we all want these relationships to be able to prosper.
I'm very pleased also that north Wales was the first opportunity that was had to also reach across the English border into the north-west and bring some of those metro mayors around the table. We know that there's an awful lot that north Wales's region has in common; you've already mentioned some of the social and employment links that people have into the region. But I was struck that you didn't list anybody from Irish local authorities being present at that meeting. I wonder whether that is something that could, perhaps, happen in future. And also, given the good work that the Welsh Government has done in terms of the development of the joint action plan and the shared statement in recent years, one of those strands, of course, is communities, diaspora and sport, and obviously, it doesn't appear that there are any civic links or community groups that were around the table either. I appreciate that it may not have been appropriate given the agenda that was discussed, but we do need to also try and foster some good relationships and discussion between those individuals also. So, can I ask you whether anything is planned in order to promote those things and whether local authority leaders from Ireland, perhaps, can be involved in some of these things in the future?
I'm pleased also to hear the emphasis from the Welsh Government on looking at hydrogen, nuclear, offshore wind, and developing a robust regional supply chain to support these sorts of opportunities. We all will have read this week the report into nuclear opportunities at Trawsfynydd, which seems to present a huge opportunity for the north Wales and, indeed, Welsh economy, and I'd be grateful to know to what extent the Republic of Ireland is keen to engage with that, given that, in the past—and I don't know what its position is at the moment—it has had a ban on any kind of nuclear energy generation, certainly within Ireland itself. So, to what extent it's engaging with the Welsh Government on that, I'd be very interested to know.
I think, when it comes to the issues in relation to transport that you mention, Minister, I appreciate very much that we want to help people to make this modal shift onto our public transport systems. But, given that we have such volumes of traffic going along the A55 into the north-west and, of course, tripping off the A55 onto ferries going over to Dublin, that key artery for the north Wales economy is something of a concern, because of those pinch-points and because of the problems with congestion that we experience quite frequently, particularly because of its lack of resilience in the event of accidents. Now, we know that the roads review decided to scrap some of the improvements that were planned to that transport infrastructure along the north Wales coast and through into the north-west of England, and I wonder what discussions you've had with colleagues about bringing some of those schemes back onto the table in order that we can really start to get that transport corridor moving in the way that we all, I'm sure, would want to see it moving.
In addition on transport, you mentioned the rail links between north Wales and Liverpool. I was a big campaigner for the Halton Curve, to get the investment that it needed, but we don't yet have direct rail links along the north Wales main line into Liverpool, which was what I was very much hoping to achieve, particularly given the importance of those economic links between what is a big, important metropolitan centre and north Wales. So, I wonder what discussions the Welsh Government's having, on a cross-border basis, about trying to get those rail links sorted.
I can see my time is coming to an end, so I'll finish with just one question, if I may. You mentioned tourism. Tourism's obviously a big driver of the north Wales economy, a very big part of what we have to offer. You mention the links with Manchester, but I think the Welsh Government could do an awful lot to learn from the Irish Government in the support that it has given to the tourism sector. Instead of a tourism tax added to the cost of overnight accommodation in Ireland, of course, we know that tourism businesses pay a reduced level of VAT—9 per cent—a significantly reduced level. So, what discussions are you having with colleagues around the Cabinet table about the possibility of emulating Ireland's success on tourism by trying to negotiate reduced levels of VAT with the UK Government?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Darren Millar, for that series of questions. So, I think you are confusing two things, really. So, when you were talking about local authorities, so, obviously, last week was the Cabinet sub-committee for north Wales, and it's the only Cabinet sub-committee we have where every Minister attends. As Minister for north Wales, I chair that, so it was my idea to have a look at the links we have with the north-west of England. And, obviously, representing Wrexham, I'm very, very well aware of those links. So, I was really keen to see what work we could do with them.
We invited the two Irish consuls: Denise McQuade for Wales and Sarah Mangan, who represents the north-west, because, again, I thought it was really important to have them around the table as well. It was very productive and very fruitful. We also have the Irish-Wales forum. We've had two meetings now. The first one was in Cardiff, the second one was in Dublin and Cork, which the First Minister brought together, and we will be having the third forum in north Wales in the autumn, as I referred to in my opening statement. That is where we tend to build up the links with Ireland's local authorities, the tourism issues that you raise. So, they're two very distinct things. So, if we can just focus on what we achieved last week and how we will take that forward.The issues you referred to around renewable energy and tourism, they will be subjects that will be discussed at the Irish-Wales forum. Now, when we were in Cork, definitely local authority leaders were there. So, it's just that the local authority leaders in north Wales, very unusually—because north Wales is the only area that has a Cabinet sub-committee—they routinely attend our north Wales Cabinet meetings, so they with there last week. So, I just think it's very important to make a very clear differential between those two things. But, of course, we talked about both, and as I said in my opening statement, the First Minister has invited the mayors to take part, in some form, in our next Ireland-Wales forum.
You're quite right, north Wales has so many opportunities with renewable energy. I think it's really exciting. I mean, I think offshore wind is—. It was about three, four years ago, maybe, that I went to Dublin to a marine energy conference, where this was something that might come in the future, and now we are seeing real progress in relation to floating energy. So those are the conversations that we have. And the Port of Mostyn, which might be in your constituency—no—

Hannah Blythyn AC: It's in mine.

Lesley Griffiths AC: It's yours, is it? Sorry, Hannah. [Laughter.] Yes, of course—it's part of Delyn.
It's the first time I'd ever visited there. It's just incredible to see the history there, and of course, Jim O'Toole, who's the MD there, and is well-known to most of us, was just so excited to show off what takes place there. So, again, the tidal lagoon there, not just has benefits about renewable energy, but also it could contribute to flood defence as well, so, it's very, very important that we work with them and we share our knowledge around that.
I think, certainly, both the mayors were very keen to see what we could do more about the transport link. It's very important to link up cities—so, Wrexham and Liverpool, and Wrexham and Manchester—but you're right, we need to be looking across the coast, and we will certainly be continuing to have those conversations. And like you, I was very keen that we acquired that funding for the Halton curve—I think that was a very important asset to our rail links.
I haven't had any discussions with colleagues about no VAT in relation to tourism at all. But again, that could be something that would be discussed, as I say, at the Ireland-Wales forum, or on tourism. But I think there are opportunities. With so many people crossing that border—it's a very, very porous border, as you know—over 200,000 people every day, either going for work or for social reasons, then tourism as well is obviously a very big opportunity for us to do that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Unlike Darren Millar, I don't have an Irish passport, but it's always worth highlighting that cruel irony that Darren Millar and his party were more than happy to take my European citizenship from me through our departure from the European Union. But I will return to the topic that we're actually discussing.
As one whose forefathers were working in the port of Holyhead, and who represents the main port to Ireland, and with a mother who is one of the Liverpool Welsh, I know full well the cultural and commercial value of our links to both east and west. And as a Welshman who is an internationalist, I believe passionately not in creating an isolated Wales, of course, but one that builds on and takes full advantage of our external relations. So I'm grateful for the update today from the Minister.
What's crucial, I think, Deputy Llywydd, is that we are confident in making and nurturing these relationships. In a union that is so unequal, it's been very easy for that confidence to be eroded. But I would welcome the Minister's comments on how she will ensure that these links do bring equal benefits. We have been too willing in the past, I think, to put up with some crumbs off the table—we need to search for those equal benefits. There are benefits that can emerge from co-operation and collaboration—I've no doubt about that. How do we ensure that benefits aren't soaked up by economic practices to the more populous areas, or the areas of high population density in north-west England?
Hydrogen, I think, is an example of that. I was pleased to hear many references by the Minister to the potential of hydrogen. The only named programme, I think, was HyNet, and yes, that is a cross-border scheme. It's fair to say that the north-west of England would benefit most from that. So, how do the plans for hydrogen development in Anglesey, in the north-west of Wales, how will they feed into these discussions with our partners to the east and west? So, I'm very interested in hydrogen developments, working with partners in Ireland, as well as the north-west of England—and also, clearly, renewable energy off our coastlines. That's one of the areas that I very much hope can benefit from the free-port status of Holyhead. My priority for the free port is to ensure tight governance, so that we can benefit and guard against the risks in relation to a free port.
But one strong argument for designating Holyhead a free port was to try and respond and to make up for the blow that the port suffered as a result of our departure from the European Union. I have some figures here—only some 33 per cent of goods between the continent of Europe and Ireland went through Wales. It was 80 per cent before the new rules following Brexit came into force. So, what discussions took place with the Irish Consul General on the impact of Brexit particularly? And does the Minister agree with Plaid Cymru that the most sensible step in trying to restore those trade relationships would be to rejoin the single market?
But I do welcome this attention given to our links. Wales is at its strongest when it does make those links, and I’m looking forward to seeing those develop for the benefit of all partners.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Rhun, for your questions and observations. I think it is good to see those links being built up, and it’s really interesting, because after we met as a Cabinet on Thursday afternoon, we held a press conference. I can’t remember which journalist it was—there was a lot of interest it. There were journalists there from The Guardian, and there were journalists from across north Wales as well, obviously. But somebody did ask, ‘Why now?’, and I thought to myself, why has it taken me this long to think, ‘Oh, we should get the mayors over and we should start looking at those links much more formally as a Government'. I suppose it is leaving the European Union, it is all those shared challenges that we have that make the time right. But it just felt completely right and completely positive, and I think we’ve really built on some momentum to take it forward. Maybe we should have done it earlier, but at least we’ve done it now.
As I say, informally, there've been lots of discussions. I've certainly met with both the mayors as north Wales Minister, and I know Ken Skates, when he was previously in this post, did. I visited the port of Liverpool to see what work was being done there to prepare for leaving the European Union. So, there have been informal links, perhaps, a bit more than formal ones, but now we have established some formal links, and as I said in my answer to Darren Millar, the First Minister has asked the two mayors to be part of the Ireland-Wales forum, and the Irish Consul was part of the last visit when we went over to Dublin and Cork.
So, I think renewable energy is an area—and if you look at the Ireland-Wales shared statement, we listed the priorities for the next year, and renewable energy opportunities in the Celtic sea were right there. That was the first priority, because we know north Wales has such potential for renewable energy, and we’re very keen to ensure that we do get our fair share. I think you can certainly see with the plans going through—. And it was great to be at the port in Mostyn to hear about the number of projects—I think it was eight projects that they have in the pipeline. So, I think you can be assured that we will certainly get our fair share.
Having Holyhead as a free port I think was really important, and I worked very closely with my colleague the Minister for Economy to make sure that the bid that came in was right up there, and couldn’t be ignored, really. I think it was really important that we did get that free port, and I’m very pleased that it will proceed to the next stage of the process. I think what it does is have the potential to support the economic mission that we have for Wales to stimulate that net growth in jobs, create high-quality opportunities, and of course Ynys Môn, unfortunately, has had some bad news lately, and I think it was even more important, because of what had happened at 2 Sisters, that we got that free port potential there for Holyhead. I think, again, Ynys Môn, energy island, we’ve said that, haven’t we, in the same breath for so long? And there are so many potentials in relation to renewable energy.
The conversations about rejoining the single market—as the First Minister, I think, said in answer to either yourself or somebody else from Plaid Cymru, we can’t do it on our own. But what’s really important is that we make the most of those opportunities. Why would we not form a close relationship with Ireland? They’re our nearest neighbours in the European Union, and it’s really important to do that. So I think between the Ireland-Wales forum and now these links that, certainly, the mayors were very keen to take forward and I think with every Minister, they had something that they wanted to take forward—so, they want to meet again with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to hear about closer working with universities. Manchester is pursuing the MBacc, to have its own baccalaureate, and Andy Burnham was very clear that he could learn a lot from us. So, I certainly think we've got momentum now, and we will make sure that we will carry it on.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Carolyn Thomas AS: The information about cross-border and country working—as a backbencher, I feel like we don't always get all the information, so it's really good to hear all of the positive work that's happening. I recently visited Dublin with the culture committee and heard how important relations are between our Governments, but also Parliaments, and we hope to continue to build on those. Much transport is west to east, and I'm aware the A55 is part of a European highway, but we are the poor relative now, because Ireland is still part of Europe, and we are not. The UK Treasury holds the purse strings, which have been cut for the majority of north Wales and north-west England, so I hope, by working together, you will have more power. Do you think, by association, that might happen? And some of the initiatives that we're already working on with Ireland—would we still be able to access EU funding by association? That was one question that came forward. And do you know how long the decision will take regarding Horizon funding?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I don't think that is the case, unfortunately. But it's really good to hear that the two Parliaments are also working very closely together. I think one of the very first trips I ever did when I was a backbencher was to go to Ireland to see what they had been doing—I think it was on the plastic bag levy, actually. Like us, they're very innovative and have some very exciting policies, and why shouldn't we all learn from each other?
Working together is really important, and, certainly, with the mayors, as I say, they have greater powers now, and I think they're very keen to work with us, because, of course, they've had devolution for, what, maybe six, seven years—probably five or six years, actually—whereas we've had it for 26 years, and they were very keen to learn from us. But I do think having that combined power and making that joint case for greater UK Government investment in our rail infrastructure will, hopefully, achieve what we all want.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. I certainly welcome any efforts being made to develop those strong links with the north-west of England and the Republic of Ireland, so thank you for your efforts on that. It's already been mentioned, the opportunities at the Anglesey free port, and, again, I welcome that cross-Government working with UK Government and yourselves as Welsh Government to see that investment. I think it's a real sign of faith in our region, and certainly will support that continued cross-governmental working.
In terms of the north-west of England, I was really pleased to see the inclusion of the Mersey Dee Alliance when you met. I think they're really an important body and could be a great opportunity for linking across the region. As you said, people in north Wales often look to Liverpool and Manchester as either economic or cultural hubs within the region, so that continued cross-border work is really, really important.
I noted you spent some time with the group at the ARMC Cymru, and you also mentioned the post-16 devolved powers to the metro mayors now as well. In his comments, the mayor of greater Manchester spoke about pathways for young people pursuing technical careers, and we know of the opportunities that are going to develop in north Wales over the coming years. So, I wonder, on that particular part around the technical careers, was there anything in particular that you may have learnt from the mayor, and do you have any thoughts on how we can utilise those relationships you're looking to build to bolster and build on those technical education routes in north Wales as well? Thank you very much.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. Certainly, Mersey Dee Alliance are very important partners for us, and Welsh Government's a long-standing founder member of the MDA. It's very important, again, as I say, that we do work across borders, so this wasn't something that happened last week; we've obviously been doing it for a long time. The MDA's prioritised both transport connectivity and skills development as two of the priorities going forward, and, in the visit to the AMRC, we really focused on transport and skills; those were the two main areas that we focused on. And what was really interesting—. Actually, the mayor of greater Manchester wasn't with us at AMRC—Steve Rotherham, the metro mayor of Liverpool city region was—and what was really interesting was the theme that kept coming up that employers are telling us that they have concerns about not being able to access the correct skills and how fast it can be. So, I was skills Minister; it was my very first job in Government 12 years ago, and I remember trying to fit in a module for electricians to fit solar panels, but that’s completely passe now. Life has moved on, and, as I say, we’re on offshore wind now. So, it’s about keeping up with those technologies and how you move further education along to make sure you’ve always got the most appropriate skills. So, I think there will be a further conversation with the appropriate Minister around that, but it was really interesting to talk later to Andy Burnham about the MBacc. As I say, because we’ve had the Welsh bac for so many years, he was very keen to learn more about that. But I think the theme was that we need to make sure that, those technical skills that people want and that employers want, it’s very important to make sure they’re available. University’s not for everybody, so we need to do more in relation to apprenticeships, for instance, and they, again, recognise that Welsh Government has really led the way on apprenticeships, all-age apprenticeships, and making sure that we have the skills that people want.

Finally, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, Minister. I’ve read your statement, a pre-copy of it, and listened intently to your statement today, and, while there’s a lot that I agree with—I think building the ties, strengthening those ties, with the north-west and Ireland is hugely important—I was left a little frustrated that there's very limited reference to west Wales and the ports of west Wales that facilitate cross-border trade with the Republic of Ireland and Wales as well. There is a mention of the Celtic sea, but, if we’re talking about those Irish-Welsh links and that trade route and the historical links that are there as well, I think it’s really important that we don’t see this just in the context of north Wales. Given that you are the Minister for north Wales, I understand that, but how can we make sure that west Wales remains an integral part of the discussion when we’re talking about that cross-border relationship and strengthening those ties between Wales and Ireland? How can we make sure west Wales isn’t forgotten in those discussions? Diolch, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, I think Sam Kurtz has answered his own question, really. This was the north Wales Cabinet sub-committee, this was about north Wales, this was about our links from north Wales to the north-west of England and with our colleagues in Ireland.
I suppose I go back to what I was saying to Darren Millar at the beginning: there are two very separate organisations. So, we’ve got the Ireland-Wales forum, which is where, obviously, west Wales would be part of those conversations. So, the next meeting of the forum—it’s held annually—will be in north Wales in the autumn, and that’s where the focus for west Wales will—. This was predominantly a north Wales Cabinet sub-committee discussing issues affecting north Wales with the two mayors from the north-west of England and the Irish consul, and, as I say, the Irish consul does attend the Ireland-Wales forum. But they are two very different—I was going to say ‘organisations’; they’re not. The Ireland-Wales forum is a ministerial organisation that was set up with the First Minister and the Irish Prime Minister, and the north Wales sub-committee is something that I chair, which I’ve tried to have a bit of a different focus on. So, I mentioned in an earlier answer that somebody had said, ‘Why now?’ And I think it is because of all of the very difficult challenges we’re facing. It’s really important that you pick out those opportunities, and that was the reason for that meeting last week.

Thank you, Minister.

8. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Celebrating Volunteers

The next item, and the final item today, is a statement by the Minister for Social Justice on celebrating volunteers. And I call on the Minister to make her statement—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. There are countless ways in which we all depend on the simple acts of kindness and mutual help that we call volunteering. Every day, in every part of Wales, the anxieties, fears and suffering of so many of our citizens are eased by the unselfish actions of volunteers. They keep our food banks and warm hubs running and help people access sources of emergency support. They’re vital to the working of our hospitals and social care system. They support our schools, and they care for and educate our children in a multitude of ways. They’re a vital part of the network of specialist and general support for the victims of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. And this year’s National Eisteddfod in August has already broken the record for the number of volunteers committed to helping out.

Jane Hutt AC: Our faith and belief groups at all levels promote understanding and foster community cohesion, providing pastoral care when we are at our lowest. We should also not forget the role that volunteers play in ensuring we live in a society that is open and transparent—a role in tackling racism and inequalities in all their forms. We see black, Asian and minority-ethnic volunteers in every aspect of community life across Wales, with many refugees becoming volunteers. So many good people in our communities have been befriending, looking out for and giving vital help to the elderly, the vulnerable and disabled people. Then there are the dedicated people of all ages, including many young people, who have the wisdom and foresight to persevere with vital work to protect and enhance the environment upon which we all depend for our present and future well-being.
These, and literally countless other examples, show an intricate, finely woven web of human goodness that we like to think of as a constant and unchanging aspect of our society. Welsh Government understands that the effective operation of our statutory services is closely bound up with and reliant upon the work of volunteers in every field of delivery—it is a vital relationship. That is why we remain strongly committed to the infrastructure of support for volunteering that we have created with our Third Sector Support Wales partners, comprising our local volunteer centres and managers, our volunteering Wales grants and our newly upgraded Volunteering Wales portal, which will make things easier both for those who want to volunteer and for the organisations that need them.
But the current stifling effects of the cost-of-living crisis are taking their toll on the volunteers whom we’ve relied upon in recent years: people who have seen us through the worst of the pandemic and who are now facing calls for ever higher levels of help to deal with the continuing effects of the crisis. It is clear, from mounting evidence, that volunteers are as vulnerable to those damaging and debilitating effects as the people who they volunteer to help, and the consequences are showing in decreasing volunteer numbers. The voluntary sector organisations,who help some of the most vulnerable people in our communities, are now facing real challenges to recruit and retain the volunteers that are their lifeblood, and this comes at a time of increasing demand for their services. Furthermore, these organisations are facing the increased costs that are affecting all businesses.
We've recognised that the activities of these organisations, and the good people who volunteer through them, are bound up in a multitude of useful ways with public sector delivery in Wales. So, it follows that the pressures that are now upon them also pose a wider threat to the levels and quality of public service delivery that people have come to expect. It's also true that, along with so many aspects of our lives, the nature of volunteering is changing. Even before the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis, the ways in which people choose and are able to volunteer were changing. That process of constant adaptation to evolving conditions and cultural shifts will continue into the future, in ways that we need to understand, consider and prepare for. The ways in which we support volunteering and keep it thriving and flowing through these changes, across all sectors, will be crucial to the future fabric of our society in Wales.
So, we have some very serious current pressures to tackle, whilst, at the same time, working to better understand and support the future of volunteering. That's why I have established a volunteering leadership group to work on both these challenges, analysing the current pressures, understanding their complexities and advising on solutions, and developing a new approach to volunteering in Wales, an approach that is fit for our future generations of volunteers, involving the voluntary, public and private sectors. And to take this forward, the leadership group will need to stimulate wide engagement and involvement with people, communities, groups and organisations across Wales. The conversations captured will shape and co-produce our reinvigorated national way of thinking about and supporting volunteering in Wales into the future, and the process of involvement at its heart will generate common purpose, energy and momentum.
The new approach I want to see will develop better intelligence to underpin our decision making and will focus early activity in priority fields of volunteering, such as health and social care. It will ensure that we have strong support and leadership within and across key areas of administration so that we can begin to see the workings of the machinery of government, and the infrastructures it both effects and affects, helping to create an environment in which volunteering is sustainable, strong and flourishing.
Llywydd, Volunteers Week this year, at the beginning of June, signals the start of this crucial work, and I’d like to take the opportunity to thank each and every person who gives up their time to help towards the well-being of others: people of all ages who give their time to formal volunteering through groups and organisations, but also the many people who take it upon themselves, in an informal way, but perhaps do not view themselves as volunteers, to do good things as individuals in their communities. Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd. We look forward to learning from you.

Mark Isherwood AC: I first became a formal volunteer over 30 years ago, and I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to celebrate volunteers ahead of Volunteers Week, held on 1 to 7 June each year. Volunteers Week is a chance to recognise the fantastic contribution that volunteers make to our communities and to say 'thank you', supported and celebrated by both grass-roots organisations at the heart of every community and larger household-name charities. I'm sure the Minister will join me in recognising that, as well as helping others, volunteering has been seen to improve volunteers' well-being too, that it's human nature to feel good after helping someone out, and that volunteering can also help you gain valuable new skills and experiences and boost your confidence.
In 2019-20, 26 per cent of people in Wales volunteered. Further, as the cross-party group on hospice and palliative care inquiry on experiences of palliative and end-of-life care in the community during the COVID-19 pandemic found, hospices described how local people and businesses quickly organised to support them in the early days of the pandemic and the key role community members played in supporting one another through the most difficult times. And, once permitted on the ward, volunteers were able to help in connecting patients with their families.
As you state, however, the voluntary sector organisations who help some of the most vulnerable people in our communities are now facing real challenges to recruit and retain the volunteers that are their lifeblood, and coming at a time of increasing demand for their services. Furthermore, these organisations are facing the increased costs that are affecting all businesses, adding that you have established a volunteering leadership group to better understand and support the future of volunteering. What consideration, therefore, will this group give to the core and recurrent issue the voluntary sector has been highlighting at least throughout the past two decades, namely that although they provide a fence at the top of the cliff, rather than an ambulance at the bottom, delivering services that save the public sector millions, they lack sustainable statutory funding? Further, how will the group address the ongoing concern expressed across the voluntary sector that despite Welsh Government legislation, they're still being denied proper involvement in the design, delivery and monitoring of local and regional services?
Many of these services, delivered by the voluntary sector, are funded by the Welsh Government's housing support grant. How do you respond to the sector, who have described the Welsh Government's freeze in the housing support grant this year as 'devastating' for service users, staff and volunteers? Why have cuts or freezes in the housing support grant been announced almost as a sacrificial offering in successive Welsh Government budgets, year after year, despite the consequences of increased pressure on the NHS accident and emergency departments and blue-light services? Why is the Welsh Government pursuing such false economies across the sector, when it should instead be removing the millions of pounds of added cost pressure on statutory services that they cause? The same applies to numerous other community bodies reliant on volunteers, including our hospices, which continue to receive the lowest level of statutory funding in the UK, despite the increasing cost-of-living pressures on their vital end-of-life care provision.
In a different context, parkrun is a free, weekly, 5 km event and a 2 km junior event in areas of open space, organised entirely by local volunteer teams. Every weekend, they need and manage to attract 1,000 volunteers to stage their 69 events across Wales. In June 2018, Parkrun UK launched the parkrun practice initiative, in collaboration with the Royal College of General Practitioners, a social prescribing initiative, which can help improve the health and well-being of patients and carers by volunteering or taking part in the 5 km, reducing the need for lifelong medication and medical intervention. What discussions has the Minister had with the health Minister to help encourage more GP practices to sign up to be a parkrun practice, and what discussions has the Minister had with the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism regarding ring-fenced financial support through Sport Wales to help facilitate this?
Finally, you referred in an earlier statement this afternoon to the Building Communities Trust. What specific related action have you therefore taken since their statement in their briefing to new Members of the Senedd after the last election that Building Communities Trust research with community groups across Wales shows that they are often overlooked and under-resourced by local and national government? I conclude by adding that I'm pleased to hear about tomorrow's event, and I'm also pleased personally to have been seeking their advice and working with them for a number of years. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood, and, obviously, congratulations on your long-standing commitment to volunteering in your opening remarks. And I'm sure that that experience is reflected across this Chamber, in terms of people's commitment to volunteering. In fact, volunteering and being involved in the third sector, like myself, has brought many of us into politics as well, in terms of wanting to make a difference in our communities, and to social justice. And I think every one of us will want to join today in giving, as I said, our sincere thanks to the volunteers who work in all our constituencies, and we need to show our appreciation of their work, as we are today.
So, 1 to 7 June, that's an opportunity during Volunteers Week when we can all share and celebrate. I'm actually visiting volunteers at the Secret Garden project at St Fagan's National Museum of History, run by the Innovate Trust, which many of you will be aware of, during Volunteers Week, and I'll be hearing first-hand what volunteering has meant to the volunteers themselves, as well as the people who receive their support.
It is important that we recognise that, in Wales, we have a culture of volunteering, and a long-standing infrastructure. This infrastructure stood us in good stead during the pandemic, when we came together. We have a third sector partnership council. In fact, it met only recently, with myself and the Deputy Minister attending, and we spent a good part of the agenda on volunteering, with a very vibrant group of people, experienced on the front line in terms of volunteering. We have a new volunteering cross-sector leadership group. I’ve already described the fact that they’ve got a new approach for volunteering in Wales. And what’s crucial—and you mentioned co-production—is it’s going to have three key work areas. It’s going to focus on intelligence and knowledge, identifying gaps around data and evidence, and co-production of a vision. And that is developing a shared vision in co-production with those who are engaging in volunteering, but also focusing on priority areas, and that’s important. You’ve mentioned some of those areas already where volunteering is so crucial, such as health and social care, education and young people.
I do want to make it clear and put on the record that we have a volunteering Wales grant scheme. That is where people can turn, and organisations can turn for funding. It’s administered by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. It has a strategic element to help projects, and it sits alongside other traditional and new grants, for example, youth-led grants. Now, again, our commitment as a Welsh Government is demonstrated by the fact that grants through this scheme have grown by over 50 per cent on pre-pandemic levels, and through these grants, we’re now investing over £1.5 million every year across Wales. Just to give you some examples of the grants—this is where the money is for volunteering; I want to make sure that Members understand that—and to give you some examples: the Newport Yemeni Community Association, a volunteer-led organisation and the money used, that funding, to hire a volunteer co-ordinator; the Welsh Refugee Council, again supporting dispersal cities across Wales, including Wrexham, Cardiff, Newport and Swansea; Circus Eruption, which is very important in terms of using circus skills; Blaenau Gwent community radio; and Learning Disability Wales's Gig Buddies Cymru/Ffrindiau Gigiau Cymru. We’ve got some really excellent schemes that have been supported.
And can I just finally say on funding? For the first time, given the Third Sector Support Wales grant partnership, we’ve got three-year grant funding, and that does allow longer term planning whilst retaining skills and staff. And it actually means you can develop those partnerships and relationships with local authorities and health boards. So, I think we're moving in the right direction. I announced last October an additional £2.2 million to continue supporting the voluntary sector infrastructure. I've mentioned the extra funding for the grants. Newid partnership, an extra £1.2 million, and that's about working with WCVA, Cwmpas and ProMo-Cymru to develop digital skills in the voluntary sector. And, of course, I will finish now, Llywydd, but the communities facilities programme is a crucial way in which we can support volunteers with capital projects, which are led by the community.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you to the Minister for the statement.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Llywydd, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, I want to offer our diolch o galon to countless volunteers across Wales who selflessly dedicate their time and efforts to make our communities stronger, more vibrant, and inclusive. These individuals embody the true spirit of solidarity, compassion, and a desire to create positive change in our society. Their tireless commitment to the well-being of others deserves our upmost appreciation.
Volunteers, as we've heard, are the lifeblood of our communities, serving in a wide range of areas, from healthcare and education, to environmental conservation and social support. They provide invaluable assistance to individuals in need, bridge gaps in public services, and contribute to the fabric of our society in immeasurable ways. Their collective impact is immeasurable, and we must take this opportunity to acknowledge their invaluable contributions. Volunteers have been instrumental in addressing the growing cost-of-living crisis in Wales. As many families struggle to make ends meet, volunteers have organised foodbanks, community pantries, and clothing drives, offering much-needed support to those facing financial hardships. They have been a lifeline for many individuals and families who find themselves grappling with the rising cost of housing, energy and other essential goods.
However, while we celebrate the efforts of volunteers, we must also scrutinise the policies and actions of the Welsh Government in supporting the voluntary sector. It is essential that we ensure adequate resources and support are in place to nurture and sustain the invaluable work carried out by volunteers across the nation. Therefore, I would like to pose three critical questions to the Minister this afternoon.
Firstly, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to address the challenges faced by volunteers in accessing training and development opportunities? Volunteers are at the forefront of tackling complex societal issues, and it is crucial that they receive the necessary training and skills to maximise their impact. Can the Minister assure this Senedd that the Government will prioritise funding and support for volunteer training programmes? In many cases, voluntary organisations are required to reapply for funding, sometimes annually, for refinancing in the midst of undertaking the project, and there is a perception that this disrupts work, hampers long-term planning, and requires them to reinvent themselves in order to secure funding. How would the Minister respond to this?
Secondly, what measures are being taken to safeguard the rights and welfare of volunteers, particularly regarding issues such as health and safety, insurance coverage, and protection from exploitation? Volunteers dedicate their time and efforts to improve the lives of others, and is it not our duty to ensure that they are adequately protected and supported? Will the Minister commit to a comprehensive review of current policies and work towards and implement robust safeguarding for volunteers?
Lastly, what plans does to the Welsh Government have to strengthen partnerships between the public sector, private organisations and the voluntary sector? Collaboration is key to maximising the impact of our volunteer work and ensuring a sustainable future for the voluntary sector. Can the Minister outline specific initiatives of funding mechanisms that will promote effective collaboration and partnership working?
Llywydd, celebrating volunteers is an important and necessary act, but it must go hand in hand with concrete actions to support and empower them. As the Minister delivers her statement, let us remember that our appreciation for volunteers must be more than mere words. Let us demand that the Welsh Government takes proactive steps to address the challenges faced by the voluntary sector and provide the necessary resources to ensure that their contributions are both recognised and sustained. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Peredur Owen Griffiths, and thank you for those really constructive and helpful questions that I can feed back through to the new volunteering cross-sector leadership group, this new approach to volunteering in Wales. I've already mentioned, so I won't repeat, the ways in which they're going to move things forward, but we will feed back the results and the comments that have been made across the Chamber, the questions that have been raised.
I think that we are fortunate in Wales that we do have these volunteer centres and managers in each of our county voluntary councils. They don't exist in this way over the border. You will all know of your county voluntary councils because not only do they promote volunteering in their areas, but they also provide that all-important, as you said in your first question, invaluable advice and support to volunteers: identifying their training; adapting to the needs of the new forms of informal volunteering that have emerged, particularly during the pandemic; and linking them in also in terms of the close partnership working with local authorities and health boards, particularly when it comes to health and social care.
We have got a Volunteering Wales digital portal. That's been updated. It's not just about enabling people to come forward to volunteer and giving them a portal to approach, but also helping to support and manage volunteers, particularly, for example, in emergency situations. We haven't mentioned that today, but the response of volunteers to flooding in Wales has been absolutely phenomenal, as it has indeed for the people who have come forward to volunteer to support Ukrainians coming, fleeing the war and Putin's aggression. So many volunteers are involved in supporting refugees as well, at all levels, and what we do is fund volunteer co-ordinators and they undertake those training, skills and development plans.
Your second point about safeguarding the rights and protections of volunteers is crucial too. They will be working on this in this new leadership group. Because things have changed, haven't they, for volunteers? I've mentioned the cost-of-living crisis, but also there are issues around governance as well as safeguarding. There area lot of new expectations on our voluntary sector bodies that they've got to undertake. We have got issues in terms of retaining staff and skills in terms of volunteering. In fact, we did have a presentation from WCVA, from Natalie Zhivkova, about volunteer recruitment and retention challenges. They can show you the timeline of, you know, further increase in service demand, further decrease in volunteer numbers. It is quite clearly having, not only the pandemic, but also difficulty recruiting volunteers—. Twenty-seven per cent identified stress or anxiety related to personal circumstances as the main challenge for the current volunteers, or needing to get back to work—you know, the stress in relation to volunteering. The great reward, but also the pressure.
So, finally, also, I've mentioned the partnerships, which are crucial to this. I have to say that one of the things in the cost-of-living Cabinet sub-committee is that we involve the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, and they come and engage directly with the Welsh Local Government Association, the Wales TUC andCitizens Advice Cymru. We are good at partnership, but I think, at a local level, local authorities, the CVCs, are crucially important and I think that the third sector digital skills will be crucial in terms of training and the enhancement of the sustainability of volunteers.

Finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch. Volunteering is a great way of building confidence, well-being, learning new skills and making friends. I'll be volunteering with others at a duck race on Monday. Do you agree, though, that they cannot replace core public services and sustainability is difficult without leadership and core funding, and they have been impacted by UK Government austerity and inflationary price increases? I'm aware that some local authorities have had to cut grants to volunteer bodies over the recent years as they are struggling themselves, and it's been reluctantly done as well. So, just your views on that, please, Minister.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Carolyn, and I'm not at all surprised that you will be out volunteering, as I'm sure many others will. You do make a really important point about the fact that although it's been part of a partnership approach, particularly in terms of health and social care, volunteering in health and social care is just crucial in terms of the role that they play. For example, we've got a dedicated Helpforce Cymru post, created and funded via Welsh Government funding and the Big Lottery Fund, for volunteering in health and social care. And, of course, a framework recommended, commended and launched by Eluned Morgan on how we can support volunteers in the roles that they wish to play.
But it has to be recognition that it is actually our public services who are at the forefront and not just in responsibility, but delivery of services, and it is in partnership. I've mentioned the cost-of-living crisis and the impact that that's had on our volunteering numbers. We saw a surge during the pandemic, but we know now that we have to support them through these difficult times and recognise that they have a crucial role, but we need funding from the UK Government to help us to deliver on our public services overall. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you to the Minister and Members, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:06.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Alun Davies: What support is the Welsh Government providing to town centres?

Mark Drakeford: We are providing £125 million of grant and loan funding to local authorities through our Transforming Towns programme. On 2 May, we published a town-centres position statement, which sets out the challenges facing towns in Wales and a series of interrelated, cross-policy actions to address those challenges.

James Evans: What plans does the Welsh Government have to address phosphate levels in special areas of conservation across Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The action plan agreed at the second river pollution summi, on 8 March, is driving a cross-sectoral collaborative approach, bringing together Government, regulators, developers, farming unions, water companies, local authorities, nutrient management boards and communities to implement sustainable solutions to tackle phosphate pollution in special areas of conservation across Wales.

Delyth Jewell: What is the Welsh Government doing to help people living in South Wales East to cope with the cost-of-living crisis?

Mark Drakeford: We are supporting struggling households across Wales, including households in South Wales East, to mitigate the impact of rising costs. We are targeting support to alleviate financial pressures, maximise incomes and keep money in the pockets of Welsh citizens. Our investment since the crisis began is more than £3.3 billion

Janet Finch-Saunders: What steps is the Welsh Government is taking to improve road safety on the A470 in Aberconwy?

Mark Drakeford: Welsh Government officials are putting a business case to the national transport delivery plan board to include a new WelTAG study between Glan Conwy and Betws-y-coed. If included, it will need to be prioritised alongside similar studies across Wales.